{"id":11940,"date":"2020-11-18T09:30:00","date_gmt":"2020-11-18T11:30:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/?p=11940"},"modified":"2022-11-21T09:55:33","modified_gmt":"2022-11-21T12:55:33","slug":"joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose\/","title":{"rendered":"Joe Rohan, ugledni podkaster, in Roger Penrose, Nobelov nagrajenec za fiziko"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>\u010ce ste imeli prilo\u017enost prebrati \u010dlanek o Nobelovi nagradi 2020 za fiziko, sem prepri\u010dan, da se spomnite enega od treh dobitnikov nagrade, Rogerja Penrosea, zaradi njegovih neverjetnih spretnosti pri matematiki in ra\u010dunanju. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Poleg tega dela je Penrose v zadnjih nekaj letih objavil tudi \u010dlanke o drugi zanimivi temi, ki se razlikuje od podro\u010dja \u010drnih lukenj. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose se ukvarja \u0161e z enim podro\u010djem raziskav, in sicer z zavestjo in kvantno mehaniko.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okej, lahko re\u010dete, da je kvantna mehanika tudi matematika in ra\u010dunstvo, vendar lahko re\u010demo, da je to druga\u010dna vrsta matematike, zelo razli\u010dna od \u010drnih lukenj. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kvantna mehanika skoraj v celoti temelji na Schr\u00f6dingerjevi ena\u010dbi, medtem ko \u010drne vloge temeljijo na Einsteinovi ena\u010dbi, lahko re\u010demo, da je pristop v vsakem primeru druga\u010den.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose v svojem \u010dlanku HAMEROFF; PENROSE, 2014 meni in ugotavlja, da obstaja povezava med strukturami vesolja in na\u0161imi mo\u017egani, natan\u010dneje biomolekularno strukturo mo\u017eganov. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>In morda bi lahko s pomo\u010djo kvantne mehanike pojasnili to povezavo. Toda kak\u0161na bi lahko bila ta povezava? Kako ima lahko tako velika struktura, kot je vesolje, nekaj skupnega z na\u0161imi majhnimi velikimi svetle\u010dimi glavami?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Leta 2018 je komik Joe Rogan sprejel Penrosa v svoji pogovorni oddaji, kjer sta skoraj dve uri govorila o Penroseovem delu, zavesti, kvantni mehaniki in \u0161tevilnih drugih stvareh.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>V zvezi z zavestjo je Penrose delil svoje ideje o tem, kako te\u017eko je formalizirati abstraktno razumevanje zavesti in ga prenesti v ra\u010dunalnik, kot nekaj, kar je mogo\u010de prevesti v \u0161tevilke. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tudi \u010de imate nekak\u0161en prevod in menite, da je argument pravilen, morate za ta ob\u010dutek sodbe upo\u0161tevati pravila, torej vas ta pravila vodijo, in morda na\u0161 um ne upo\u0161teva nobenega pravila, ki ga poznamo, zaradi \u010desar ta argument in prevod preprosto nista resni\u010dna. Razumete?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Tukaj je vrstica iz Penrosea o tem: \"Kaj je razumevanje? Kaj pomeni? Je to nekaj, kar sledi pravilom? Ali je to algoritem? <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To ni algoritem...\", \u010ce torej ni algoritem, kaj je? In ali ni kvantna mehanika nekaj, kar \u017ee poznamo?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Da, vemo, vendar poznamo le majhen del ne\u010desa, kar se zdi tako veliko, zapleteno in druga\u010dno od vsega, s \u010dimer se ukvarjamo. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Na kvantni ravni se stvari ne dogajajo tako kot v na\u0161i resni\u010dnosti, temve\u010d jih vodijo povsem druga\u010dni zakoni, \u010de sploh obstajajo, vse zato, ker jih \u0161e vedno ne poznamo. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u010ce ste gledali Ant-Mana iz Marvelovih filmov, mislim, da razumete, o \u010dem govorim.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Za trenutek se spomnimo na Schr\u00f6dingerjevo ma\u010dko. Schr\u00f6dinger je leta 1935 sku\u0161al razlo\u017eiti koncept kvantne mehanike z miselnim eksperimentom, v katerem je v zaprto \u0161katlo postavil ma\u010dko, stekleni\u010dko strupa in radioaktivni element. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u010ce element razpade, se stekleni\u010dka s strupom razbije in ma\u010dka umre. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bistvo je, da pri zaprti \u0161katli ne moremo videti, kaj se dogaja v njej, in brez rezultata poskusa ne vemo, kaj se je v resnici zgodilo, zato je ma\u010dka lahko tako \u017eiva kot mrtva. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To je zanimivost kvantne mehanike, saj so lahko stvari hkrati dve stvari ali so lahko na dveh mestih hkrati.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"aligncenter size-large\"><img decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" width=\"536\" height=\"487\" src=\"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11941\" srcset=\"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme.png 536w, https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme-300x273.png 300w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 536px) 100vw, 536px\" \/><figcaption> \u017divi in mrtvi hkrati, razumete? <\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose pravi, da je prepri\u010dan, da to, kar se dogaja v na\u0161ih glavah, ni algoritem, ne sledi nobenemu pravilu, verjame, da je nekaj drugega. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nekaj, kar \"zahteva na\u0161e zavestno razumevanje tega, o \u010demer razmi\u0161ljamo, saj je razmi\u0161ljanje stvar zavesti, razumevanje pa je zavestna dejavnost.\" <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Biti vest dejavnost, kot je, igrati instrument, biti ustvarjalen, delo, ali zaljubljenost. Te dejavnosti vesti o\u010ditno niso ra\u010dunski podatki, temve\u010d se dogaja nekaj drugega.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Na sre\u010do se je za\u010delo pojavljati nekaj razlag, ki so pojasnile vsa vpra\u0161anja znanstvenikov. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Odgovor se morda skriva v na\u0161ih nevronih, celicah, ki po sinapsah prena\u0161ajo vse vrste informacij, kemi\u010dnih, elektri\u010dnih, mehanskih in toplotnih. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose je Roganu povedal, da je pred nekaj leti prejel pismo od Stuarta Hameroffa, v katerem pravi, da Penrose ni upo\u0161teval nevronov in struktur, imenovanih mikrotubuli, ki so lahko absolutno temeljno orodje za zavest. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Na \u017ealost ni mogo\u010de izolirati kvantnih u\u010dinkov v nevronih, ker se pojavi okoljska dekoherenca, kar deluje v kvantnem stanju, se ne reproducira na vi\u0161ji ravni.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\"Videti je, da so prav tiste vrste stvari, ki bi lahko podpirale kvantno mehaniko do stopnje, ko bi lahko pri\u010dakovali, da bo kvantno stanje propadlo,\" pravi Penrose Roganu o vsebini Hameroffovega pisma. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mikrotubuli<\/strong> so majhne cevke, sestavljene iz proteina, imenovanega Tubulin, ki imajo v na\u0161em telesu razli\u010dne funkcije, v mo\u017eganih pa imajo poleg obi\u010dajne funkcije, kot sta podpora strukturi in transport, mikrotubuli lahko tudi vlogo pri prenosu informacij v nevronu (DENT; BAAS, 2014).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Podenote mikrotubulov imajo lahko dve razli\u010dni vrsti interakcij, tip A in tip B. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Prva je najbolj simetri\u010dna, saj so vse naokoli videti enako. V mo\u017eganih je prisoten tip A, saj je simetrija najpomembnej\u0161a lastnost, ki omogo\u010da druga\u010dno organizacijo informacij.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Konec koncev, kaj je zavest? Na vpra\u0161anje Joeja je Penrose pojasnil, da je na ravni na\u0161e zavesti ohranjeno tovrstno kvantno stanje in da bi mikrotubuli lahko bili tisti, ki prena\u0161ajo kvantni u\u010dinek, vendar ne izklju\u010duje mo\u017enosti, da so vklju\u010dene tudi druge strukture, ki jih \u0161e nismo odkrili.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose je posumil, da obstaja razred molekul, ki naseljujejo te sinapse in so simetri\u010dne kot pentagoni in heksagoni, v vsakem vrtincu pa imajo beljakovino z obliko Triskeliona, ki se ob robovih povezujejo kot vzorec nogometne \u017eoge. Toda ali je samo simetrija dovolj? Ali so pomemben dejavnik tudi snovi, ki so narejene iz teh beljakovin? In kak\u0161na je v resnici funkcija teh beljakovin v sinapsah? Na \u017ealost tega \u0161e vedno ne vemo.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Simetrija ima o\u010ditno klju\u010dno vlogo v kvantni mehaniki pri pojavu, ki se imenuje u\u010dinek preja. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To se zgodi, kadar imamo zelo simetri\u010dno strukturo in je mogo\u010da velika vrzel med najni\u017ejim in naslednjim energijskim nivojem. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Velika vrzel lahko skriva pomembne informacije o najni\u017eji energijski ravni, pomanjkanje informacij pa je ena od te\u017eav. Toda \"vse to je le nekak\u0161en namig na neke vrste kvantni pojav, tam je \u0161e veliko stvari, ki jih je treba razumeti,\" pravi Penrose.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;Penrose ima prav, zagotovo se moramo \u0161e veliko nau\u010diti in korak za korakom lahko odkrivamo vedno ve\u010d o svetu kvantne mehanike v na\u0161ih glavah. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nekateri so govorili, da smo nekako povezani drug z drugim in z vesoljem prek frekvenc in valov, no, morda na dolo\u010deni ravni smo. Toda da bi vedeli zagotovo, moramo o tem opraviti \u0161e ve\u010d \u0161tudij.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u010ce si \u017eelite ogledati celotno pogovorno oddajo, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=GEw0ePZUMHA&amp;t=402s&amp;ab_channel=PowerfulJRE\">kliknite tukaj<\/a> \u010de \u017eelite izvedeti ve\u010d o tej temi in Penroseovem delu, spodaj najdete nekaj njegovih objavljenih \u010dlankov:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>DENT, E. W.; BAAS, P. W. Mikrotubuli v nevronih kot nosilci informacij. <strong>Journal of neurochemistry<\/strong>, v. 129, \u0161t. 2, str. 235-239, abr. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>HAMEROFF, S.; PENROSE, R. Zavest v vesolju: (1): pregled teorije \"Orch OR\". <strong>Fizika \u017eivljenja Mnenja<\/strong>, v. 11, \u0161t. 1, str. 39-78, 1 mar. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>PENROSE, R.; LANDAUER, R. Cesarjev novi um: R.: Cesar imperator: o ra\u010dunalnikih, mislih in fizikalnih zakonih. <strong>Fizika danes<\/strong>, v. 43, \u0161t. 6, str. 73, 11. jan. 2008.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u010ce ste raziskovalec s podro\u010dja nevroznanosti ali fizike, vam lahko pomagamo ustvariti infografiko o <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/neuroscience\">nevroznanost<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/neurology\">nevrologija<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/cell-biology\">celi\u010dna biologija<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/biochemistry\">biokemija<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/molecular-biology\">molekularna biologija<\/a>in <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/physics-&amp;-astronomy\">Fizika<\/a> v Mind the Graph.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Na\u0161 namen je, da bi va\u0161a znanstvena vsebina dosegla vedno ve\u010d ljudi v akademskem svetu in zunaj njega, in sicer na druga\u010den na\u010din komuniciranja znanosti. Ste pripravljeni poskusiti?<br><\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u010ce ste imeli prilo\u017enost prebrati \u010dlanek o Nobelovi nagradi 2020 za fiziko, sem prepri\u010dan, da se spomnite enega od treh dobitnikov nagrade, Rogerja Penrosea, zaradi njegovih neverjetnih spretnosti pri matematiki in ra\u010dunanju. Poleg tega dela je Penrose v zadnjih nekaj letih objavil tudi \u010dlanke o [...]<\/p>","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":11946,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[959],"tags":[805,554,775],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v19.9 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Joe Rohan, the Podcaster and Roger Penrose, the Nobel Prize<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Joe Rogan invited Sir Roger Penrose to his podcast. 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He has a Ph.D. and solid scientific background in Psychopharmacology and experience as a Guest Researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry (Germany) and Researcher in D'Or Institute for Research and Education (IDOR, Brazil). Fabricio holds over 2500 citations in Google Scholar. He has 10 years of experience in small innovative businesses, with relevant experience in product design and innovation management. Connect with him on LinkedIn - Fabricio Pamplona.","sameAs":["http:\/\/mindthegraph.com","https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/fabriciopamplona"],"url":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/author\/fabricio\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=11940"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":16057,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940\/revisions\/16057"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/11946"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=11940"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=11940"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sl\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=11940"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}