{"id":11940,"date":"2020-11-18T09:30:00","date_gmt":"2020-11-18T11:30:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/?p=11940"},"modified":"2022-11-21T09:55:33","modified_gmt":"2022-11-21T12:55:33","slug":"joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/sk\/joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose\/","title":{"rendered":"Joe Rohan, v\u00fdznamn\u00fd podcaster a Roger Penrose, nosite\u013e Nobelovej ceny za fyziku"},"content":{"rendered":"

Ak ste mali mo\u017enos\u0165 pre\u010d\u00edta\u0165 si in\u00fd \u010dl\u00e1nok, ktor\u00fd som nap\u00edsal o Nobelovej cene 2020 za fyziku, ur\u010dite si pam\u00e4t\u00e1te jedn\u00e9ho z troch laure\u00e1tov tejto ceny, Rogera Penrosea, pre jeho \u00fa\u017easn\u00e9 schopnosti s matematikou a po\u010d\u00edtan\u00edm. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Okrem tejto pr\u00e1ce Penrose v posledn\u00fdch rokoch publikoval \u010dl\u00e1nky aj o inej zauj\u00edmavej t\u00e9me, odli\u0161nej od oblasti \u010diernych dier. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrose sa venuje aj \u010fal\u0161ej oblasti v\u00fdskumu, a to vedomiu a kvantovej mechanike.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Dobre, m\u00f4\u017eete poveda\u0165, \u017ee kvantov\u00e1 mechanika je tie\u017e matematika a kalkul, ale m\u00f4\u017eeme poveda\u0165, \u017ee je to in\u00fd druh matematiky, ve\u013emi odli\u0161n\u00fd od \u010diernych dier. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kvantov\u00e1 mechanika je takmer \u00faplne zalo\u017een\u00e1 na Schr\u00f6dingerovej rovnici, zatia\u013e \u010do \u010dierne role s\u00fa zalo\u017een\u00e9 na Einsteinovej rovnici, d\u00e1 sa poveda\u0165, \u017ee pr\u00edstup je v ka\u017edom pr\u00edpade in\u00fd.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrose sa domnieva a vo svojom \u010dl\u00e1nku HAMEROFF; PENROSE, 2014 dospel k z\u00e1veru, \u017ee existuje spojenie medzi \u0161trukt\u00farami vesm\u00edru a na\u0161\u00edm mozgom, presnej\u0161ie biomolekul\u00e1rnou \u0161trukt\u00farou mozgu. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

A mo\u017eno by sme toto spojenie mohli vysvetli\u0165 pomocou kvantovej mechaniky. Ale o ak\u00fd druh spojenia by mohlo \u00eds\u0165? Ako m\u00f4\u017ee ma\u0165 tak\u00e1 ve\u013ek\u00e1 \u0161trukt\u00fara, akou je vesm\u00edr, nie\u010do spolo\u010dn\u00e9 s na\u0161imi mal\u00fdmi ve\u013ek\u00fdmi \u017eiariacimi hlavami?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

V roku 2018 komik Joe Rogan priv\u00edtal Penrosea vo svojej talkshow a takmer dve hodiny sa rozpr\u00e1vali o Penroseovej pr\u00e1ci, vedom\u00ed, kvantovej mechanike a mno\u017estve \u010fal\u0161\u00edch vec\u00ed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

V s\u00favislosti s t\u00e9mou vedomia sa Penrose podelil o svoje my\u0161lienky o tom, ak\u00e9 \u0165a\u017ek\u00e9 je formalizova\u0165 abstraktn\u00e9 ch\u00e1panie vedomia a vlo\u017ei\u0165 ho do po\u010d\u00edta\u010da, ako nie\u010do, \u010do sa d\u00e1 prelo\u017ei\u0165 do \u010d\u00edsel. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Aj ke\u010f m\u00e1te nejak\u00fd preklad a mysl\u00edte si, \u017ee argument je spr\u00e1vny, na to, aby ste mali pocit \u00fasudku, mus\u00edte bra\u0165 do \u00favahy pravidl\u00e1, tak\u017ee sa nimi riadite, a mo\u017eno sa na\u0161a myse\u013e neriadi \u017eiadnym pravidlom, ktor\u00e9 o nej pozn\u00e1me, tak\u017ee tento argument a preklad jednoducho nie s\u00fa skuto\u010dn\u00e9. Ch\u00e1pete?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Tu je riadok od Penrosea o tom: \"\u010co je to porozumenie? \u010co to znamen\u00e1? Je to nie\u010do, \u010do sa riadi pravidlami? Je to algoritmus? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nie je to algoritmus...\", Tak\u017ee ak to nie je algoritmus, \u010do to je? A nie je kvantov\u00e1 mechanika nie\u010do, \u010do u\u017e pozn\u00e1me?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u00c1no, vieme, ale pozn\u00e1me len mal\u00fa \u010das\u0165 nie\u010doho, \u010do sa zd\u00e1 by\u0165 tak\u00e9 ve\u013ek\u00e9 a zlo\u017eit\u00e9 a odli\u0161n\u00e9 od v\u0161etk\u00e9ho, s \u010d\u00edm pracujeme. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Na kvantovej \u00farovni sa veci nedej\u00fa tak, ako sa dej\u00fa v na\u0161ej realite, riadia sa \u00faplne in\u00fdmi z\u00e1konmi, ak v\u00f4bec nejak\u00e9 z\u00e1kony existuj\u00fa, a to v\u0161etko preto, lebo o tom e\u0161te nevieme. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ak ste sledovali Ant-Mana z filmov Marvelu, mysl\u00edm, \u017ee ch\u00e1pete, o \u010dom hovor\u00edm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Spome\u0148me si na chv\u00ed\u013eu na Schr\u00f6dingerovu ma\u010dku. Schr\u00f6dinger sa v roku 1935 sna\u017eil vysvetli\u0165 koncept kvantovej mechaniky, ke\u010f do uzavretej \u0161katule vlo\u017eil my\u0161lienkov\u00fd experiment s ma\u010dkou, jednou f\u013ea\u0161ou jedu a r\u00e1dioakt\u00edvnym prvkom. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ak sa prvok rozpadne, f\u013ea\u0161a s jedom sa rozbije a ma\u010dka zomrie. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ide o to, \u017ee ke\u010f je \u0161katu\u013ea zatvoren\u00e1, nevid\u00edme, \u010do sa deje vo vn\u00fatri, bez toho, aby sme poznali v\u00fdsledok experimentu, nevieme, \u010do sa naozaj stalo, tak\u017ee ma\u010dka m\u00f4\u017ee by\u0165 \u017eiv\u00e1 aj m\u0155tva. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

To je na kvantovej mechanike zauj\u00edmav\u00e9, \u017ee veci m\u00f4\u017eu by\u0165 dvoma vecami s\u00fa\u010dasne alebo sa m\u00f4\u017eu nach\u00e1dza\u0165 na dvoch miestach naraz.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
\u017div\u00fd a m\u0155tvy z\u00e1rove\u0148, ch\u00e1pete? <\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n

Penrose hovor\u00ed, \u017ee je presved\u010den\u00fd, \u017ee to, \u010do sa deje v na\u0161ich hlav\u00e1ch, nie je algoritmus, neriadi sa \u017eiadnym pravidlom, ver\u00ed, \u017ee je to nie\u010do in\u00e9. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nie\u010do, \u010do \"si vy\u017eaduje na\u0161e vedom\u00e9 uvedomenie si toho, o \u010dom prem\u00fd\u0161\u013eame, myslenie je vedom\u00e1 vec a ch\u00e1panie je vedom\u00e1 \u010dinnos\u0165\". <\/p>\n\n\n\n

By\u0165 svedomitou \u010dinnos\u0165ou, ako je hranie na nejak\u00fd n\u00e1stroj, tvorivos\u0165, pr\u00e1ca alebo zamilovanos\u0165. Tieto \u010dinnosti svedomia zrejme nie s\u00fa v\u00fdpo\u010dtov\u00fdmi \u00fadajmi, deje sa nie\u010do in\u00e9.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Na\u0161\u0165astie sa za\u010dalo nieko\u013eko vysvetlen\u00ed, ktor\u00e9 vysvet\u013euj\u00fa v\u0161etky ot\u00e1zky vedcov. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Odpove\u010f m\u00f4\u017ee by\u0165 v na\u0161ich neur\u00f3noch, bunk\u00e1ch, ktor\u00e9 pren\u00e1\u0161aj\u00fa synapsie so v\u0161etk\u00fdmi druhmi inform\u00e1ci\u00ed, chemik\u00e1li\u00ed, elektriny, mechaniky a termiky. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrose Roganovi povedal, \u017ee pred nieko\u013ek\u00fdmi rokmi dostal list od ist\u00e9ho Stuarta Hameroffa, v ktorom sa p\u00ed\u0161e, \u017ee Penrose neberie do \u00favahy neur\u00f3ny a \u0161trukt\u00fary naz\u00fdvan\u00e9 mikrotubuly, ktor\u00e9 m\u00f4\u017eu by\u0165 absol\u00fatne z\u00e1kladn\u00fdm n\u00e1strojom pre vedomie. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Nane\u0161\u0165astie, nie je mo\u017en\u00e9 izolova\u0165 kvantov\u00e9 efekty v neur\u00f3noch, preto\u017ee dostanete environment\u00e1lnu dekoherenciu, \u010do funguje v kvantovom stave, sa nereprodukuje na vy\u0161\u0161ej \u00farovni. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"Vyzeraj\u00fa presne tak, \u017ee by mohli podporova\u0165 druh \u00farovne kvantovej mechaniky a\u017e po \u00farove\u0148, na ktorej by ste mohli o\u010dak\u00e1va\u0165 kolaps kvantov\u00e9ho stavu,\" hovor\u00ed Penrose Roganovi o obsahu Hameroffovho listu. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Mikrotubuly<\/strong> s\u00fa mal\u00e9 trubice zlo\u017een\u00e9 z prote\u00ednu naz\u00fdvan\u00e9ho tubul\u00edn, maj\u00fa v na\u0161om tele r\u00f4zne funkcie, ale v mozgu okrem ich be\u017enej funkcie, ako je podpora \u0161trukt\u00fary a preprava, m\u00f4\u017eu ma\u0165 mikrotubuly \u00falohu pri pren\u00e1\u0161an\u00ed inform\u00e1ci\u00ed v neur\u00f3ne (DENT; BAAS, 2014).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Podjednotky mikrotubulov m\u00f4\u017eu ma\u0165 zrejme dva r\u00f4zne typy interakci\u00ed, typ A a typ B. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Prv\u00e1 je najsymetrickej\u0161ia, po celom obvode vyzeraj\u00fa rovnako. V mozgu je pr\u00edtomn\u00fd typ A, pri\u010dom symetria je najd\u00f4le\u017eitej\u0161ou vlastnos\u0165ou, ktor\u00e1 umo\u017e\u0148uje organizova\u0165 inform\u00e1cie r\u00f4znym sp\u00f4sobom.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ve\u010f \u010do je to vedomie? Na ot\u00e1zku Joea Penrose vysvetlil, \u017ee na \u00farovni n\u00e1\u0161ho vedomia je zachovan\u00fd tento druh kvantov\u00e9ho stavu a \u017ee mikrotubuly by mohli by\u0165 t\u00fdm, \u010do nesie kvantov\u00fd efekt, ale nevylu\u010duje, \u017ee sa na tom podie\u013eaj\u00fa aj in\u00e9 \u0161trukt\u00fary, \u0161trukt\u00fary, ktor\u00e9 sme zatia\u013e neobjavili. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrose mal podozrenie, \u017ee existuje trieda molek\u00fal, ktor\u00e9 ob\u00fdvaj\u00fa tieto synapsie a s\u00fa symetrick\u00e9 ako p\u00e4\u0165uholn\u00edky a \u0161es\u0165uholn\u00edky, pri\u010dom v ka\u017edom v\u00edre maj\u00fa bielkovinu s tvarom Triskelionu, ktor\u00e1 sa sp\u00e1ja pozd\u013a\u017e okrajov ako vzor futbalovej lopty. Sta\u010d\u00ed v\u0161ak len symetria? S\u00fa \u010fal\u0161\u00edm d\u00f4le\u017eit\u00fdm faktorom l\u00e1tky vyroben\u00e9 z t\u00fdchto bielkov\u00edn? A ak\u00e1 je vlastne funkcia t\u00fdchto prote\u00ednov v synapsi\u00e1ch? To, \u017eia\u013e, st\u00e1le nevieme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Symetria zrejme zohr\u00e1va k\u013e\u00fa\u010dov\u00fa \u00falohu v kvantovej mechanike, ktor\u00e1 sa naz\u00fdva Yarn teller effect. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

St\u00e1va sa to vtedy, ke\u010f m\u00e1me vysoko symetrick\u00fa \u0161trukt\u00faru a je mo\u017en\u00e9 ma\u0165 ve\u013ek\u00fa medzeru medzi najni\u017e\u0161ou a nasleduj\u00facou energetickou hladinou. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ve\u013ek\u00e1 medzera m\u00f4\u017ee skr\u00fdva\u0165 d\u00f4le\u017eit\u00e9 inform\u00e1cie o najni\u017e\u0161ej energetickej \u00farovni, tento nedostatok inform\u00e1ci\u00ed je jedn\u00fdm z probl\u00e9mov. Ale \"toto v\u0161etko je len ak\u00fdmsi n\u00e1znakom nejak\u00e9ho kvantov\u00e9ho javu, st\u00e1le je tam ve\u013ea vec\u00ed, ktor\u00e9 treba pochopi\u0165,\" hovor\u00ed Penrose.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

 Penrose m\u00e1 pravdu, ur\u010dite sa m\u00e1me e\u0161te ve\u013ea \u010do u\u010di\u0165 a krok za krokom m\u00f4\u017eeme objavova\u0165 viac a viac o svete kvantovej mechaniky v na\u0161ich hlav\u00e1ch. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Niektor\u00ed \u013eudia hovorili, \u017ee sme navz\u00e1jom prepojen\u00ed s vesm\u00edrom prostredn\u00edctvom frekvenci\u00ed a v\u013an, no, mo\u017eno na ur\u010ditej \u00farovni \u00e1no. Ale aby sme to vedeli s istotou, potrebujeme o tom e\u0161te viac \u0161t\u00fadi\u00ed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ak si chcete pozrie\u0165 cel\u00fa talkshow, kliknite sem<\/a> alebo ak sa chcete dozvedie\u0165 viac o tejto t\u00e9me a Penroseovej pr\u00e1ci, ni\u017e\u0161ie n\u00e1jdete niektor\u00e9 z jeho publikovan\u00fdch \u010dl\u00e1nkov:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

DENT, E. W.; BAAS, P. W. Mikrotubuly v neur\u00f3noch ako nosi\u010de inform\u00e1ci\u00ed. \u010casopis Journal of neurochemistry<\/strong>, ro\u010d. 129, \u010d. 2, s. 235-239, abr. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

HAMEROFF, S.; PENROSE, R. Vedomie vo vesm\u00edre: R.: A review of the \"Orch OR\" theory (Presk\u00famanie te\u00f3rie \"Orch OR\"). Fyzika \u017eivota Recenzie<\/strong>, ro\u010d. 11, \u010d. 1, s. 39-78, 1. mar. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

PENROSE, R.; LANDAUER, R. The Emperor's New Mind: O po\u010d\u00edta\u010doch, mysliach a fyzik\u00e1lnych z\u00e1konoch. Physics Today<\/strong>, ro\u010d. 43, \u010d. 6, s. 73, 11. janu\u00e1ra 2008.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ak ste v\u00fdskumn\u00edk z oblasti neurovedy alebo fyziky, m\u00f4\u017eeme v\u00e1m pom\u00f4c\u0165 vytvori\u0165 infografiku o neurovedy<\/a>, neurol\u00f3gia<\/a>, bunkovej biol\u00f3gie<\/a>, bioch\u00e9mia<\/a>, molekul\u00e1rna biol\u00f3gia<\/a>a Fyzika<\/a> v Mind the Graph. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Na\u0161\u00edm z\u00e1merom je, aby sa v\u00e1\u0161 vedeck\u00fd obsah dostal k \u010doraz v\u00e4\u010d\u0161iemu po\u010dtu \u013eud\u00ed z akademick\u00e9ho prostredia aj mimo neho, a to in\u00fdm sp\u00f4sobom komunik\u00e1cie o vede. Ste pripraven\u00ed to vysk\u00fa\u0161a\u0165?
<\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Ak ste mali mo\u017enos\u0165 pre\u010d\u00edta\u0165 si in\u00fd \u010dl\u00e1nok, ktor\u00fd som nap\u00edsal o Nobelovej cene 2020 za fyziku, ur\u010dite si pam\u00e4t\u00e1te jedn\u00e9ho z troch laure\u00e1tov tejto ceny, Rogera Penrosea, pre jeho \u00fa\u017easn\u00e9 schopnosti s matematikou a po\u010d\u00edtan\u00edm. Okrem tejto pr\u00e1ce Penrose v posledn\u00fdch rokoch publikoval aj \u010dl\u00e1nky o [...]<\/p>","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":11946,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[959],"tags":[805,554,775],"yoast_head":"\nJoe Rohan, the Podcaster and Roger Penrose, the Nobel Prize<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Joe Rogan invited Sir Roger Penrose to his podcast. 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