{"id":11940,"date":"2020-11-18T09:30:00","date_gmt":"2020-11-18T11:30:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/?p=11940"},"modified":"2022-11-21T09:55:33","modified_gmt":"2022-11-21T12:55:33","slug":"joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose\/","title":{"rendered":"Joe Rohan, eminentul podcaster \u0219i Roger Penrose, laureat al Premiului Nobel pentru Fizic\u0103"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Dac\u0103 a\u021bi avut ocazia s\u0103 citi\u021bi un alt articol pe care l-am scris despre Premiul Nobel 2020 pentru Fizic\u0103, sunt sigur c\u0103 v\u0103 aminti\u021bi de unul dintre cei trei c\u00e2\u0219tig\u0103tori ai premiului, Roger Penrose, pentru abilit\u0103\u021bile sale uimitoare \u00een matematic\u0103 \u0219i calcul. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Pe l\u00e2ng\u0103 aceast\u0103 lucrare, Penrose a mai publicat \u00een ultimii ani \u0219i articole despre o alt\u0103 tem\u0103 interesant\u0103, diferit\u0103 de domeniul g\u0103urilor negre. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose are un alt domeniu de cercetare, cel al con\u0219tiin\u021bei \u0219i al mecanicii cuantice.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bine, pute\u021bi spune c\u0103 mecanica cuantic\u0103 este, de asemenea, matematic\u0103 \u0219i calcul, dar putem spune c\u0103 este un alt fel de matematic\u0103, foarte diferit\u0103 de g\u0103urile negre. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mecanica cuantic\u0103 se bazeaz\u0103 aproape \u00een \u00eentregime pe ecua\u021bia lui Schr\u00f6dinger, \u00een timp ce rolurile negre se bazeaz\u0103 pe ecua\u021bia lui Einstein, se poate spune c\u0103 abordarea \u00een fiecare caz este diferit\u0103.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose crede \u0219i concluzioneaz\u0103 \u00een articolul s\u0103u HAMEROFF; PENROSE, 2014 c\u0103 exist\u0103 o leg\u0103tur\u0103 \u00eentre structurile universului \u0219i creierul nostru, mai precis structura biomolecular\u0103 a creierului. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u0218i poate c\u0103, prin mecanica cuantic\u0103, am putea explica aceast\u0103 leg\u0103tur\u0103. Dar ce fel de leg\u0103tur\u0103 ar putea fi? Cum poate o structur\u0103 at\u00e2t de mare precum universul s\u0103 aib\u0103 ceva \u00een comun cu micile noastre capete mari \u0219i str\u0103lucitoare?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u00cen 2018, un comediant pe nume Joe Rogan l-a primit pe Penrose \u00een talk-show-ul s\u0103u, timp de aproape 2 ore au vorbit despre munca lui Penrose, despre con\u0219tiin\u021b\u0103, mecanica cuantic\u0103 \u0219i o mul\u021bime de alte lucruri.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u00cen ceea ce prive\u0219te con\u0219tiin\u021ba, Penrose \u0219i-a \u00eemp\u0103rt\u0103\u0219it ideile despre c\u00e2t de greu este s\u0103 formaliz\u0103m o \u00een\u021belegere abstract\u0103 a con\u0219tiin\u021bei \u0219i s\u0103 o introducem \u00een computer, ca ceva ce poate fi tradus \u00een numere. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Chiar dac\u0103 ai un fel de traducere \u0219i crezi c\u0103 argumentul este corect, pentru a avea acest sentiment de judecat\u0103 trebuie s\u0103 iei \u00een considerare reguli, astfel \u00eenc\u00e2t s\u0103 fii ghidat de aceste reguli \u0219i poate c\u0103 mintea noastr\u0103 nu respect\u0103 nicio regul\u0103 pe care o cunoa\u0219tem, ceea ce face ca acel argument \u0219i acea traducere s\u0103 nu fie reale. A\u021bi \u00een\u021beles?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Iat\u0103 o replic\u0103 a lui Penrose \u00een acest sens: \"Ce este \u00een\u021belegerea? Ce \u00eenseamn\u0103 ea? Este ceva care respect\u0103 regulile? Este un algoritm? <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nu este un algoritm...\", Deci, dac\u0103 nu este un algoritm, atunci ce este? \u0218i mecanica cuantic\u0103 nu este ceva ce cunoa\u0219tem deja?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ei bine, da, \u0219tim, dar cunoa\u0219tem doar o mic\u0103 parte din ceva care pare a fi at\u00e2t de mare \u0219i de complex \u0219i diferit de tot ceea ce lucr\u0103m. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>La nivel cuantic, lucrurile nu se \u00eent\u00e2mpl\u0103 a\u0219a cum se \u00eent\u00e2mpl\u0103 \u00een realitatea noastr\u0103, ci sunt ghidate de legi total diferite, dac\u0103 exist\u0103 vreo lege, pentru c\u0103 \u00eenc\u0103 nu \u0219tim. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dac\u0103 a\u021bi urm\u0103rit Ant-Man din filmele Marvel, cred c\u0103 a\u021bi \u00een\u021beles despre ce vorbesc.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>S\u0103 ne amintim pentru un moment de pisica lui Schr\u00f6dinger. \u00cen 1935, Schr\u00f6dinger, \u00eencerc\u00e2nd s\u0103 explice conceptul de mecanic\u0103 cuantic\u0103, a prezentat un experiment de g\u00e2ndire \u00een care o pisic\u0103, o sticl\u0103 de otrav\u0103 \u0219i un element radioactiv erau introduse \u00eentr-o cutie \u00eenchis\u0103. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dac\u0103 elementul se descompune, sticla de otrav\u0103 se sparge, iar pisica moare. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ideea este c\u0103, dac\u0103 \u00eenchidem cutia, nu putem vedea ce se \u00eent\u00e2mpl\u0103 \u00een\u0103untru, f\u0103r\u0103 a cunoa\u0219te rezultatul experimentului nu \u0219tim ce s-a \u00eent\u00e2mplat cu adev\u0103rat, astfel \u00eenc\u00e2t pisica poate fi at\u00e2t vie, c\u00e2t \u0219i moart\u0103. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Aceasta este partea interesant\u0103 a mecanicii cuantice: lucrurile pot fi dou\u0103 lucruri \u00een acela\u0219i timp sau pot fi \u00een dou\u0103 locuri \u00een acela\u0219i timp.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"aligncenter size-large\"><img decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" width=\"536\" height=\"487\" src=\"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11941\" srcset=\"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme.png 536w, https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme-300x273.png 300w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 536px) 100vw, 536px\" \/><figcaption> Viu \u0219i mort \u00een acela\u0219i timp, pricepi? <\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose spune c\u0103 pentru a fi convins c\u0103 ceea ce se \u00eent\u00e2mpl\u0103 \u00een capul nostru nu este un algoritm, nu urmeaz\u0103 nicio regul\u0103, el crede c\u0103 este altceva. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ceva care \"necesit\u0103 aprecierea noastr\u0103 con\u0219tient\u0103 a ceea ce g\u00e2ndim, g\u00e2ndirea este un lucru al con\u0219tiin\u021bei, iar \u00een\u021belegerea este o activitate con\u0219tient\u0103\". <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Fiind o activitate de con\u0219tiin\u021b\u0103, cum ar fi, s\u0103 c\u00e2n\u021bi la un instrument, s\u0103 fii creativ, s\u0103 lucrezi sau s\u0103 te \u00eendr\u0103goste\u0219ti. Aceste activit\u0103\u021bi de con\u0219tiin\u021b\u0103 aparent nu sunt date de calcul, este altceva ce se \u00eent\u00e2mpl\u0103.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Din fericire, au \u00eenceput s\u0103 apar\u0103 c\u00e2teva explica\u021bii pentru a l\u0103muri toate \u00eentreb\u0103rile oamenilor de \u0219tiin\u021b\u0103. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>R\u0103spunsul ar putea fi \u00een neuronii no\u0219tri, celulele care transport\u0103 sinapsele cu tot felul de informa\u021bii, chimice, electrice, mecanice \u0219i termice. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose i-a spus lui Rogan c\u0103, \u00een urm\u0103 cu c\u00e2\u021biva ani, a primit o scrisoare de la Stuart Hameroff, \u00een care acesta spunea c\u0103 Penrose nu ia \u00een considerare neuronii \u0219i structurile numite microtubuli, care ar putea fi instrumentul fundamental absolut pentru con\u0219tiin\u021b\u0103. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Din p\u0103cate, nu este posibil\u0103 izolarea efectelor cuantice \u00een neuroni, deoarece se produce decoeren\u021ba mediului, ceea ce func\u021bioneaz\u0103 \u00een starea cuantic\u0103 nu se reproduce la un nivel superior.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\"Ele arat\u0103 exact genul de lucruri care ar putea sus\u021bine mecanica cuantic\u0103 p\u00e2n\u0103 la un nivel la care te-ai putea a\u0219tepta la un colaps al st\u0103rii cuantice\", \u00eei spune Penrose lui Rogan despre con\u021binutul scrisorii lui Hameroff. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Microtubuli<\/strong> sunt tuburi mici compuse dintr-o protein\u0103 numit\u0103 tubulin\u0103, au diferite func\u021bii \u00een corpul nostru, dar \u00een creier, pe l\u00e2ng\u0103 func\u021bia lor conven\u021bional\u0103, cum ar fi sus\u021binerea structurii \u0219i transportul, microtubulii pot avea un rol \u00een transportul informa\u021biilor \u00een neuron (DENT; BAAS, 2014).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Aparent, subunit\u0103\u021bile microtubulare pot avea dou\u0103 tipuri diferite de interac\u021biuni, de tip A \u0219i de tip B. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Primul este cel mai simetric, arat\u0103 la fel de jur \u00eemprejur. \u00cen creier, tipul A este cel prezent, simetria fiind cea mai important\u0103 caracteristic\u0103 pentru a permite organizarea informa\u021biei \u00eentr-un mod diferit.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>La urma urmei, ce este con\u0219tiin\u021ba? \u00centrebat de Joe, Penrose a explicat c\u0103 exist\u0103 acest tip de stare cuantic\u0103 p\u0103strat\u0103 \u00een nivelul nostru de con\u0219tiin\u021b\u0103 \u0219i c\u0103 microtubulele ar putea fi ceea ce poart\u0103 efectul cuantic, dar nu exclude posibilitatea ca \u0219i alte structuri s\u0103 fie implicate, structuri pe care nu le descoperim \u00eenc\u0103.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose a b\u0103nuit c\u0103 exist\u0103 o clas\u0103 de molecule care locuiesc \u00een aceste sinapse \u0219i c\u0103 acestea sunt simetrice ca pentagoni \u0219i hexagoane, av\u00e2nd \u00een fiecare vortex o protein\u0103 cu form\u0103 de Triskelion, care se unesc de-a lungul marginilor ca modelul unei mingi de fotbal. Dar este suficient\u0103 doar simetria? Sunt substan\u021bele din care sunt f\u0103cute aceste proteine un alt factor important? \u0218i care este cu adev\u0103rat func\u021bia acestor proteine \u00een sinapse? Din p\u0103cate, \u00eenc\u0103 nu \u0219tim.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Se pare c\u0103 simetria joac\u0103 un rol cheie \u00een mecanica cuantic\u0103 \u00een ceea ce prive\u0219te efectul \"Yarn teller\". <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Acest lucru se \u00eent\u00e2mpl\u0103 atunci c\u00e2nd avem o structur\u0103 foarte simetric\u0103 \u0219i este posibil s\u0103 existe un decalaj mare \u00eentre cel mai mic nivel energetic \u0219i cel urm\u0103tor. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Diferen\u021ba mare poate ascunde informa\u021bii importante despre cel mai sc\u0103zut nivel energetic, aceast\u0103 lips\u0103 de informa\u021bii fiind una dintre probleme. Dar \"toate acestea sunt un fel de sugestie a unui fel de fenomen cuantic, mai sunt \u00eenc\u0103 multe de \u00een\u021beles acolo\", spune Penrose.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;Penrose are dreptate, mai avem \u00eenc\u0103 multe de \u00eenv\u0103\u021bat, cu siguran\u021b\u0103, \u0219i pas cu pas putem descoperi din ce \u00een ce mai multe despre lumea mecanicii cuantice din interiorul capetelor noastre. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Unii oameni obi\u0219nuiau s\u0103 spun\u0103 c\u0103 suntem \u00eentr-un fel conecta\u021bi unii cu al\u021bii \u0219i cu universul prin frecven\u021be \u0219i unde, ei bine, poate c\u0103 la un anumit nivel suntem. Dar, pentru a fi siguri, avem \u00eenc\u0103 nevoie de mai multe studii \u00een acest sens.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dac\u0103 dori\u021bi s\u0103 urm\u0103ri\u021bi emisiunea integral\u0103, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=GEw0ePZUMHA&amp;t=402s&amp;ab_channel=PowerfulJRE\">click aici<\/a> sau pentru a afla mai multe despre acest subiect \u0219i despre activitatea lui Penrose, v\u0103 prezent\u0103m mai jos c\u00e2teva dintre articolele publicate de acesta:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>DENT, E. W.; BAAS, P. W. Microtubulii din neuroni ca purt\u0103tori de informa\u021bie. <strong>Jurnalul de neurochimie<\/strong>, v. 129, n. 2, p. 235-239, abr. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>HAMEROFF, S.; PENROSE, R. Con\u0219tiin\u021ba \u00een univers: O analiz\u0103 a teoriei \"Orch OR\". <strong>Fizica vie\u021bii Recenzii<\/strong>, v. 11, nr. 1, p. 39-78, 1 mar. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>PENROSE, R.; LANDAUER, R. The Emperor's New Mind: Despre calculatoare, min\u021bi \u0219i legile fizicii. <strong>Fizica azi<\/strong>, v. 43, n. 6, p. 73, 11 ian. 2008.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dac\u0103 e\u0219ti cercet\u0103tor \u00een domeniul neuro\u0219tiin\u021belor sau al fizicii, te putem ajuta s\u0103 creezi un infografic despre <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/neuroscience\">neuro\u0219tiin\u021b\u0103<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/neurology\">neurologie<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/cell-biology\">biologie celular\u0103<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/biochemistry\">biochimie<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/molecular-biology\">biologie molecular\u0103<\/a>, \u0219i <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/physics-&amp;-astronomy\">Fizic\u0103<\/a> \u00een Mind the Graph.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Inten\u021bia noastr\u0103 este de a face con\u021binutul \u0219tiin\u021bific s\u0103 ajung\u0103 la tot mai multe persoane din interiorul \u0219i din afara lumii academice, \u00eentr-un mod diferit de a comunica \u0219tiin\u021ba. Sunte\u021bi gata s\u0103 \u00eencerca\u021bi?<br><\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Dac\u0103 a\u021bi avut ocazia s\u0103 citi\u021bi un alt articol pe care l-am scris despre Premiul Nobel 2020 pentru Fizic\u0103, sunt sigur c\u0103 v\u0103 aminti\u021bi de unul dintre cei trei c\u00e2\u0219tig\u0103tori ai premiului, Roger Penrose, pentru abilit\u0103\u021bile sale uimitoare \u00een matematic\u0103 \u0219i calcul. Pe l\u00e2ng\u0103 aceast\u0103 activitate, Penrose a mai publicat articole, \u00een ultimii ani, despre [...]<\/p>","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":11946,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[959],"tags":[805,554,775],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v19.9 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Joe Rohan, the Podcaster and Roger Penrose, the Nobel Prize<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Joe Rogan invited Sir Roger Penrose to his podcast. 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He has a Ph.D. and solid scientific background in Psychopharmacology and experience as a Guest Researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry (Germany) and Researcher in D'Or Institute for Research and Education (IDOR, Brazil). Fabricio holds over 2500 citations in Google Scholar. He has 10 years of experience in small innovative businesses, with relevant experience in product design and innovation management. Connect with him on LinkedIn - Fabricio Pamplona.","sameAs":["http:\/\/mindthegraph.com","https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/fabriciopamplona"],"url":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/author\/fabricio\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=11940"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":16057,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940\/revisions\/16057"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/11946"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=11940"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=11940"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/ro\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=11940"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}