{"id":11940,"date":"2020-11-18T09:30:00","date_gmt":"2020-11-18T11:30:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/?p=11940"},"modified":"2022-11-21T09:55:33","modified_gmt":"2022-11-21T12:55:33","slug":"joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose\/","title":{"rendered":"D\u017eo Rohans, iev\u0113rojamais podkasters, un Nobela pr\u0113mijas laure\u0101ts fizik\u0101 Rod\u017eers Penrouzs."},"content":{"rendered":"

Ja jums bija iesp\u0113ja las\u012bt citu manu rakstu par Nobela pr\u0113miju 2020. gad\u0101 fizik\u0101, esmu p\u0101rliecin\u0101ts, ka atceraties vienu no trim pr\u0113mijas laure\u0101tiem - Rod\u017eeru Penrosu (Roger Penrose) - par vi\u0146a apbr\u012bnojamaj\u0101m matem\u0101tikas un r\u0113\u0137in\u0101\u0161anas prasm\u0113m. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Papildus \u0161im darbam Penrouzs p\u0113d\u0113jos gados ir public\u0113jis ar\u012b rakstus par citu interesantu t\u0113mu, kas at\u0161\u0137iras no melno caurumu jomas. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrouzam ir v\u0113l viena p\u0113tniec\u012bbas joma - apzi\u0146a un kvantu meh\u0101nika.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Labi, j\u016bs varat teikt, ka kvantu meh\u0101nika ar\u012b ir matem\u0101tika un r\u0113\u0137in\u0101\u0161ana, bet m\u0113s varam teikt, ka t\u0101 ir cita veida matem\u0101tika, kas \u013coti at\u0161\u0137iras no melnajiem caurumiem. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kvantu meh\u0101nika gandr\u012bz piln\u012bb\u0101 balst\u0101s uz \u0160r\u0113dingera vien\u0101dojumu, bet meln\u0101s lomas - uz Ein\u0161teina vien\u0101dojumu, var teikt, ka pieeja katr\u0101 gad\u012bjum\u0101 ir at\u0161\u0137ir\u012bga.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrouzs uzskata un sav\u0101 rakst\u0101 HAMEROFF; PENROSE, 2014 secina, ka past\u0101v saikne starp Visuma strukt\u016br\u0101m un m\u016bsu smadzen\u0113m, prec\u012bz\u0101k - smadze\u0146u biomolekul\u0101ro strukt\u016bru. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Un varb\u016bt ar kvantu meh\u0101nikas pal\u012bdz\u012bbu m\u0113s var\u0113tu izskaidrot \u0161o saist\u012bbu. Bet k\u0101da veida saist\u012bba t\u0101 var\u0113tu b\u016bt? K\u0101 t\u0101dai lielai strukt\u016brai k\u0101 Visums var b\u016bt kaut kas kop\u012bgs ar m\u016bsu mazaj\u0101m lielaj\u0101m sp\u012bdo\u0161aj\u0101m galv\u0101m?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

2018. gad\u0101 komi\u0137is D\u017eo Rogans (Joe Rogan) sav\u0101 sarunu \u0161ov\u0101 uz\u0146\u0113ma Penrosu, un gandr\u012bz 2 stundas vi\u0146i run\u0101ja par Penrosa darbu, apzi\u0146u, kvantu meh\u0101niku un daudz ko citu.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Run\u0101jot par apzi\u0146u, Penrouzs dal\u012bj\u0101s sav\u0101s idej\u0101s par to, cik gr\u016bti ir formaliz\u0113t abstraktu apzi\u0146as izpratni un ievietot to dator\u0101, k\u0101 kaut ko, ko var p\u0101rv\u0113rst skait\u013cos. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Pat ja jums ir k\u0101ds tulkojums un j\u016bs dom\u0101jat, ka arguments ir pareizs, lai jums b\u016btu \u0161\u0101da sprieduma saj\u016bta, jums ir j\u0101\u0146em v\u0113r\u0101 noteikumi, t\u0101tad j\u016bs vad\u0101ties p\u0113c \u0161iem noteikumiem, un, iesp\u0113jams, m\u016bsu pr\u0101ts neiev\u0113ro nevienu no mums zin\u0101majiem noteikumiem, padarot \u0161o argumentu un tulkojumu vienk\u0101r\u0161i nere\u0101lu. Saprotat?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

L\u016bk, k\u0101da Penroza rindi\u0146a par to: \"Kas ir sapratne? Ko t\u0101 noz\u012bm\u0113? Vai tas ir kaut kas, kas iev\u0113ro noteikumus? Vai tas ir algoritms? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Tas nav algoritms...\", T\u0101tad, ja tas nav algoritms, tad kas tas ir? Un vai kvantu meh\u0101nika nav kaut kas t\u0101ds, ko m\u0113s jau zin\u0101m?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

J\u0101, m\u0113s zin\u0101m, bet m\u0113s zin\u0101m tikai mazu da\u013ci\u0146u no kaut k\u0101, kas \u0161\u0137iet tik liels, sare\u017e\u0123\u012bts un at\u0161\u0137ir\u012bgs no visa, ar ko m\u0113s str\u0101d\u0101jam. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kvantu l\u012bmen\u012b lietas nenotiek t\u0101, k\u0101 notiek m\u016bsu realit\u0101t\u0113, t\u0101s vada pavisam citi likumi, ja t\u0101di visp\u0101r past\u0101v, un tas viss t\u0101p\u0113c, ka m\u0113s to v\u0113l nezin\u0101m. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ja esat noskat\u012bju\u0161ies Marvel filmas Ant-Man, dom\u0101ju, ka j\u016bs saprotat, par ko es run\u0101ju.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Atcer\u0113simies uz br\u012bdi \u0160r\u0113dingera ka\u0137i. \u0160r\u0113dingers 1935. gad\u0101, cen\u0161oties izskaidrot kvantu meh\u0101nikas j\u0113dzienu, to ietv\u0113ra domu eksperiment\u0101, kur\u0101 sl\u0113gt\u0101 kast\u0113 ielika ka\u0137i, vienu pudeli ar indi un radioakt\u012bvu elementu. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ja elements sabr\u016bk, indes pudele tiek salauzta, un ka\u0137is nomirst. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Runa ir par to, ka, kad kaste ir aizv\u0113rta, m\u0113s nevaram redz\u0113t, kas notiek t\u0101s iek\u0161pus\u0113, un, nezinot eksperimenta rezult\u0101tu, j\u016bs nezin\u0101t, kas \u012bsti notika, t\u0101p\u0113c ka\u0137is var b\u016bt gan dz\u012bvs, gan miris. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Tas ir interesanti kvantu meh\u0101nik\u0101, ka lietas var b\u016bt divas lietas vienlaic\u012bgi vai atrasties div\u0101s viet\u0101s vienlaikus.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Dz\u012bvs un miris vienlaikus, saproti? <\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n

Penrouzs saka, lai b\u016btu p\u0101rliecin\u0101ts, ka tas, kas notiek m\u016bsu galv\u0101s, nav algoritms, tas neatbilst nek\u0101diem noteikumiem, vi\u0146\u0161 uzskata, ka ir kaut kas cits. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kaut kas t\u0101ds, kas \"prasa m\u016bsu apzin\u0101tu izpratni par to, par ko m\u0113s dom\u0101jam, dom\u0101\u0161ana ir apzin\u0101ta lieta, un izpratne ir apzin\u0101ta darb\u012bba.\" <\/p>\n\n\n\n

B\u016bt sirdsapzi\u0146as aktivit\u0101te, piem\u0113ram, sp\u0113l\u0113t k\u0101du instrumentu, b\u016bt rado\u0161am, str\u0101d\u0101t vai iem\u012bl\u0113ties. \u0160\u012bs sirdsapzi\u0146as darb\u012bbas ac\u012bmredzot nav skait\u013co\u0161anas dati, ir kaut kas cits.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Par laimi, s\u0101k\u0101s da\u017ei skaidrojumi, kas izskaidroja visus zin\u0101tnieku jaut\u0101jumus. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Atbilde var\u0113tu b\u016bt m\u016bsu neironos, \u0161\u016bn\u0101s, kas p\u0101rn\u0113s\u0101 sinapses ar visu veidu inform\u0101ciju, \u0137\u012bmisk\u0101m viel\u0101m, elektr\u012bbu, meh\u0101niku un termisku inform\u0101ciju. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrouzs Roganam past\u0101st\u012bja, ka pirms da\u017eiem gadiem vi\u0146\u0161 sa\u0146\u0113mis v\u0113stuli no Stjuarta Hamerofa, kur\u0101 vi\u0146\u0161 apgalvoja, ka Penrouzs ne\u0146em v\u0113r\u0101 neironus un strukt\u016bras, ko sauc par mikrotubul\u0101m un kas var\u0113tu b\u016bt absol\u016bti fundament\u0101ls apzi\u0146as instruments. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Diem\u017e\u0113l, nav iesp\u0113jams izol\u0113t kvantu efektus neironos, jo j\u016bs sa\u0146emsiet vides dekoherence, kas darbojas kvantu st\u0101vokl\u012b, nav reproduc\u0113t uz aug\u0161u l\u012bme\u0146a m\u0113rog\u0101. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"Tie izskat\u0101s tie\u0161i t\u0101da veida lieta, kas var\u0113tu ar\u012b b\u016bt atbalsta veida l\u012bme\u0146a kvantu meh\u0101niku l\u012bdz l\u012bmenim, ka j\u016bs var\u0113tu sagaid\u012bt kvantu st\u0101vokli uz sabrukuma,\" saka Penrose Rogan par saturu Hameroff v\u0113stules. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Mikrotubulas<\/strong> ir mazas caurul\u012btes, kas sast\u0101v no olbaltumvielas, ko sauc par tubul\u012bnu, t\u0101m ir da\u017e\u0101das funkcijas m\u016bsu organism\u0101, bet smadzen\u0113s papildus to parastaj\u0101m funkcij\u0101m, piem\u0113ram, nodro\u0161in\u0101t strukt\u016bras atbalstu un transportu, mikrotubul\u0101m var b\u016bt noz\u012bme inform\u0101cijas p\u0101rn\u0113s\u0101\u0161an\u0101 neiron\u0101 (DENT; BAAS, 2014).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ac\u012bmredzot mikrotubulu subvien\u012bb\u0101m var b\u016bt divu veidu mijiedarb\u012bba - A tipa un B tipa. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Pirmais ir vissimetrisk\u0101kais, tie izskat\u0101s vien\u0101di visapk\u0101rt. Smadzen\u0113s ir A tipa, jo simetrija ir vissvar\u012bg\u0101k\u0101 \u012bpa\u0161\u012bba, kas \u013cauj inform\u0101ciju organiz\u0113t da\u017e\u0101di.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Galu gal\u0101, kas ir apzi\u0146a? Jaut\u0101ts D\u017eo, Penrouzs paskaidroja, ka m\u016bsu apzi\u0146as l\u012bmen\u012b ir saglab\u0101jies \u0161\u0101ds kvantu st\u0101voklis un ka mikrotubulas var\u0113tu b\u016bt t\u0101s, kas nes kvantu efektu, ta\u010du vi\u0146\u0161 neizsl\u0113dz iesp\u0113ju, ka ir iesaist\u012btas ar\u012b citas strukt\u016bras, strukt\u016bras, kuras m\u0113s v\u0113l neesam atkl\u0101ju\u0161i. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrouzam rad\u0101s aizdomas, ka \u0161aj\u0101s sinaps\u0113s m\u012bt molekulu klase, un t\u0101s ir simetriskas k\u0101 piecst\u016bri un se\u0161st\u016bri, katr\u0101 virpul\u012b ir Triskeliona formas prote\u012bns, kas savienojas gar mal\u0101m k\u0101 futbola bumbas raksts. Bet vai pietiek tikai ar simetriju? Vai no \u0161\u012bm olbaltumviel\u0101m veidot\u0101s vielas ir v\u0113l viens svar\u012bgs faktors? Un k\u0101da paties\u012bb\u0101 ir \u0161o olbaltumvielu funkcija sinaps\u0113s? Diem\u017e\u0113l m\u0113s joproj\u0101m nezin\u0101m.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ac\u012bmredzot simetrijai ir galven\u0101 loma kvantu meh\u0101nik\u0101, ko sauc par dzijas st\u0101st\u012bt\u0101ja efektu. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Tas notiek, ja mums ir \u013coti simetriska strukt\u016bra un ir iesp\u0113jama liela plaisa starp zem\u0101ko ener\u0123ijas l\u012bmeni un n\u0101kamo. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Liela plaisa var sl\u0113pt svar\u012bgu inform\u0101ciju par zem\u0101ko ener\u0123ijas l\u012bmeni, un \u0161is inform\u0101cijas tr\u016bkums ir viena no probl\u0113m\u0101m. Ta\u010du \"tas viss ir sava veida ierosin\u0101jums par k\u0101du kvantu fenomenu, tur v\u0113l ir daudz ko izprast,\" saka Penrouzs.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

 Penrouzam ir taisn\u012bba, mums noteikti v\u0113l daudz j\u0101m\u0101c\u0101s, un soli pa solim m\u0113s varam atkl\u0101t arvien vair\u0101k un vair\u0101k par kvantu meh\u0101nikas pasauli m\u016bsu galv\u0101s. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Da\u017ei cilv\u0113ki m\u0113dz teikt, ka m\u0113s esam k\u0101 savienoti viens ar otru un ar Visumu caur frekvenc\u0113m un vi\u013c\u0146iem, un, iesp\u0113jams, zin\u0101m\u0101 m\u0113r\u0101 m\u0113s esam. Bet, lai to dro\u0161i zin\u0101tu, mums v\u0113l ir vajadz\u012bgi papildu p\u0113t\u012bjumi par to.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ja v\u0113laties noskat\u012bties visu sarunu \u0161ovu, klik\u0161\u0137iniet \u0161eit<\/a> vai lai uzzin\u0101tu vair\u0101k par \u0161o t\u0113mu un Penroza darbu, zem\u0101k ir da\u017ei no vi\u0146a public\u0113tajiem rakstiem:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

DENT, E. W.; BAAS, P. W. Mikrotubulas neironos k\u0101 inform\u0101cijas nes\u0113ji. Journal of neiro\u0137\u012bmijas<\/strong>, t. 129, n. 2, p. 235-239, abr. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

HAMEROFF, S.; PENROSE, R. Consciousness in the universe: Orch OR\" teorijas p\u0101rskats. Dz\u012bv\u012bbas fizika Atsauksmes<\/strong>, v. 11, n. 1, p. 39-78, 1 mar. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

PENROSE, R.; LANDAUER, R. The Emperor's New Mind: Par datoriem, pr\u0101tiem un fizikas likumiem. Physics Today<\/strong>, t. 43, n. 6, p. 73, 2008. gada 11. janv\u0101ris.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ja esat p\u0113tnieks neirozin\u0101tnes vai fizikas jom\u0101, m\u0113s varam pal\u012bdz\u0113t jums izveidot infografiku par. neirozin\u0101tne<\/a>, neirolo\u0123ija<\/a>, \u0161\u016bnu biolo\u0123ija<\/a>, bio\u0137\u012bmija<\/a>, molekul\u0101r\u0101 biolo\u0123ija<\/a>, un Fizika<\/a> Mind the Graph. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

M\u016bsu m\u0113r\u0137is ir pan\u0101kt, lai j\u016bsu zin\u0101tniskais saturs sasniegtu arvien vair\u0101k cilv\u0113ku gan no akad\u0113misk\u0101s vides, gan \u0101rpus t\u0101s, izmantojot at\u0161\u0137ir\u012bgu zin\u0101tnes komunik\u0101cijas veidu. Vai esat gatavi to izm\u0113\u0123in\u0101t?
<\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Ja jums bija iesp\u0113ja las\u012bt citu manu rakstu par Nobela pr\u0113miju 2020. gad\u0101 fizik\u0101, esmu p\u0101rliecin\u0101ts, ka atceraties vienu no trim pr\u0113mijas laure\u0101tiem - Rod\u017eeru Penrosu (Roger Penrose) - par vi\u0146a apbr\u012bnojamaj\u0101m matem\u0101tikas un r\u0113\u0137in\u0101\u0161anas prasm\u0113m. Papildus \u0161im darbam Penrouzs p\u0113d\u0113jos gados ir public\u0113jis ar\u012b rakstus par [...]<\/p>","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":11946,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[959],"tags":[805,554,775],"yoast_head":"\nJoe Rohan, the Podcaster and Roger Penrose, the Nobel Prize<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Joe Rogan invited Sir Roger Penrose to his podcast. 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He has a Ph.D. and solid scientific background in Psychopharmacology and experience as a Guest Researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry (Germany) and Researcher in D'Or Institute for Research and Education (IDOR, Brazil). Fabricio holds over 2500 citations in Google Scholar. He has 10 years of experience in small innovative businesses, with relevant experience in product design and innovation management. Connect with him on LinkedIn - Fabricio Pamplona.","sameAs":["http:\/\/mindthegraph.com","https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/fabriciopamplona"],"url":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/author\/fabricio\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=11940"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":16057,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940\/revisions\/16057"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/11946"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=11940"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=11940"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lv\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=11940"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}