{"id":11940,"date":"2020-11-18T09:30:00","date_gmt":"2020-11-18T11:30:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/?p=11940"},"modified":"2022-11-21T09:55:33","modified_gmt":"2022-11-21T12:55:33","slug":"joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose\/","title":{"rendered":"Joe Rohanas, \u017eymus podkasteris, ir Nobelio fizikos premijos laureatas Rogeris Penrose'as"},"content":{"rendered":"

Jei tur\u0117jote galimyb\u0119 skaityti kit\u0105 mano straipsn\u012f apie 2020 m. Nobelio fizikos premij\u0105, esu tikras, kad prisimenate vien\u0105 i\u0161 trij\u0173 premijos laureat\u0173 - Roger\u012f Penrose'\u0105 - d\u0117l jo nuostabi\u0173 matematikos ir skai\u010diavimo \u012fg\u016bd\u017ei\u0173. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Be \u0161io darbo, per pastaruosius kelerius metus Penrouzas taip pat paskelb\u0117 straipsni\u0173 kita \u012fdomia tema, nesusijusia su juod\u0173j\u0173 skyli\u0173 sritimi. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrouzas atlieka dar vien\u0105 tyrim\u0173 srit\u012f, susijusi\u0105 su s\u0105mone ir kvantine mechanika.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Gerai, galite sakyti, kad kvantin\u0117 mechanika taip pat yra matematika ir skai\u010diavimas, bet galime sakyti, kad tai yra kitos r\u016b\u0161ies matematika, labai besiskirianti nuo juod\u0173j\u0173 skyli\u0173. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kvantin\u0117 mechanika beveik visi\u0161kai pagr\u012fsta \u0160r\u0117dingerio lygtimi, o juodosios rol\u0117s - Ein\u0161teino lygtimi, galima sakyti, kad po\u017ei\u016bris kiekvienu atveju yra skirtingas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrose'as savo straipsnyje HAMEROFF; PENROSE, 2014, tiki ir daro i\u0161vad\u0105, kad egzistuoja ry\u0161ys tarp visatos strukt\u016br\u0173 ir m\u016bs\u0173 smegen\u0173, tiksliau, biomolekulin\u0117s smegen\u0173 strukt\u016bros. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ir galb\u016bt pasitelk\u0119 kvantin\u0119 mechanik\u0105 gal\u0117tume paai\u0161kinti \u0161\u012f ry\u0161\u012f. Ta\u010diau koks tai gal\u0117t\u0173 b\u016bti ry\u0161ys? Kaip tokia didel\u0117 strukt\u016bra kaip visata gali tur\u0117ti ka\u017ek\u0105 bendro su m\u016bs\u0173 ma\u017eomis didel\u0117mis spindin\u010diomis galvomis?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

2018 m. komikas Joe Roganas pri\u0117m\u0117 Penrose'\u0105 savo pokalbi\u0173 laidoje ir beveik 2 valandas kalb\u0117jo apie Penrose'o darb\u0105, s\u0105mon\u0119, kvantin\u0119 mechanik\u0105 ir daugyb\u0119 kit\u0173 dalyk\u0173.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kalb\u0117damas apie s\u0105mon\u0119, Penrouzas dalijosi mintimis apie tai, kaip sunku formalizuoti abstrakt\u0173 s\u0105mon\u0117s supratim\u0105 ir perkelti j\u012f \u012f kompiuter\u012f, kaip ka\u017ek\u0105, k\u0105 galima i\u0161versti \u012f skai\u010dius. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Net jei turite tam tikr\u0105 vertim\u0105 ir manote, kad argumentas yra teisingas, tam, kad pajustum\u0117te, jog sprend\u017eiate, turite atsi\u017evelgti \u012f taisykles, tod\u0117l vadovaujat\u0117s \u0161iomis taisykl\u0117mis, o galb\u016bt m\u016bs\u0173 protas nesilaiko jokios mums \u017einomos taisykl\u0117s, tod\u0117l \u0161is argumentas ir vertimas tiesiog n\u0117ra tikras. Suprantate?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\u0160tai Penrouzo eilut\u0117 apie tai: \"Kas yra supratimas? K\u0105 tai rei\u0161kia? Ar tai ka\u017ekas, kas laikosi taisykli\u0173? Ar tai algoritmas? <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Tai n\u0117ra algoritmas...\", Taigi, jei tai n\u0117ra algoritmas, kas tai yra? Ir ar kvantin\u0117 mechanika n\u0117ra ka\u017ekas, k\u0105 mes jau \u017einome?<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Na, taip, mes \u017einome, bet \u017einome tik ma\u017e\u0105 ma\u017eyt\u0119 dal\u012f to, kas, atrodo, yra taip daug, sud\u0117tinga ir skiriasi nuo visko, su kuo dirbame. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kvantiniame lygmenyje viskas vyksta ne taip, kaip m\u016bs\u0173 realyb\u0117je, o pagal visi\u0161kai kitokius d\u0117snius, jei tokie d\u0117sniai apskritai egzistuoja, nes mes j\u0173 dar ne\u017einome. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Jei \u017ei\u016br\u0117jote \"Marvel\" film\u0105 \"Ant-Man\", manau, suprantate, apie k\u0105 kalbu.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Akimirk\u0105 prisiminkime \u0160redingerio kat\u0119. 1935 m. Schr\u00f6dingeris, bandydamas paai\u0161kinti kvantin\u0117s mechanikos s\u0105vok\u0105, atliko mintin\u012f eksperiment\u0105: \u012f u\u017edar\u0105 d\u0117\u017e\u0119 \u012fd\u0117jo kat\u0119, vien\u0105 buteliuk\u0105 nuod\u0173 ir radioaktyv\u0173 element\u0105. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Jei elementas suyra, nuod\u0173 buteliukas sud\u016b\u017eta ir kat\u0117 mir\u0161ta. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Esm\u0117 ta, kad u\u017edarytoje d\u0117\u017eut\u0117je negalime matyti, kas vyksta viduje, ne\u017einodami eksperimento rezultat\u0173 ne\u017einote, kas i\u0161 tikr\u0173j\u0173 \u012fvyko, tod\u0117l kat\u0117 gali b\u016bti ir gyva, ir negyva. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kvantin\u0117 mechanika \u012fdomi tuo, kad daiktai vienu metu gali b\u016bti dviem daiktais arba b\u016bti dviejose vietose vienu metu.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"\"
Gyvas ir mir\u0119s tuo pa\u010diu metu, suprantate? <\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n

Penrouzas sako es\u0105s \u012fsitikin\u0119s, kad tai, kas vyksta m\u016bs\u0173 galvose, n\u0117ra algoritmas, jis nesivadovauja jokia taisykle, jis mano, kad tai yra ka\u017ekas kita. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Ka\u017ekas, kas \"reikalauja m\u016bs\u0173 s\u0105moningo suvokimo to, apie k\u0105 m\u0105stome, m\u0105stymas yra s\u0105mon\u0117s dalykas, o supratimas yra s\u0105moninga veikla\". <\/p>\n\n\n\n

B\u016bti s\u0105moninga veikla, pavyzd\u017eiui, groti instrumentu, b\u016bti k\u016brybingas, dirbti ar \u012fsimyl\u0117ti. \u0160ios s\u0105\u017ein\u0117s veiklos, matyt, n\u0117ra skai\u010diavimo duomenys, vyksta ka\u017ekas kita.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Laimei, prad\u0117ta ai\u0161kintis, kaip paai\u0161kinti visus mokslininkams kylan\u010dius klausimus. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Atsakymas gali slyp\u0117ti m\u016bs\u0173 neuronuose - l\u0105stel\u0117se, per kurias sinaps\u0117mis perduodama \u012fvairiausia informacija, chemin\u0117s, elektrin\u0117s, mechanin\u0117s ir \u0161ilumin\u0117s med\u017eiagos. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrouzas pasakojo Roganui, kad prie\u0161 kelerius metus jis gavo lai\u0161k\u0105 i\u0161 Stiuarto Hamerofo, kuriame teigiama, kad Penrouzas neatsi\u017evelg\u0117 \u012f neuronus ir strukt\u016bras, vadinamas mikrotubul\u0117mis, o tai gali b\u016bti absoliu\u010diai esminis s\u0105mon\u0117s \u012frankis. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Deja, ne\u012fmanoma izoliuoti kvantini\u0173 efekt\u0173 neuronuose, nes atsiranda aplinkos dekoherencija, o tai, kas veikia kvantin\u0117je b\u016bsenoje, neatsikartoja auk\u0161tesnio lygio mastu. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

\"Jie atrodo kaip tik toks dalykas, kad gal\u0117t\u0173 b\u016bti gerai remti lygio kvantin\u0117s mechanikos nat\u016bra iki tokio lygio, kad j\u016bs galite tik\u0117tis, kad kvantin\u0117s b\u016bsenos \u012f \u017elugimo,\" sako Penrose Rogan apie Hameroff lai\u0161ko turin\u012f. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Mikrotubul\u0117s<\/strong> tai ma\u017ei vamzdeliai, sudaryti i\u0161 baltymo tubulino, jie atlieka \u012fvairias funkcijas m\u016bs\u0173 organizme, ta\u010diau smegenyse, be \u012fprast\u0173 funkcij\u0173, toki\u0173 kaip strukt\u016bros palaikymas ir transportavimas, mikrotubul\u0117s gali b\u016bti susijusios su informacijos perne\u0161imu neuronuose (DENT; BAAS, 2014).<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Akivaizdu, kad mikrotubul\u0173 subvienetai gali tur\u0117ti dviej\u0173 skirting\u0173 tip\u0173 s\u0105veik\u0105 - A ir B tipo. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Pirmasis yra simetri\u0161kiausias, jie atrodo vienodi i\u0161 vis\u0173 pusi\u0173. Smegenyse vyrauja A tipas, nes simetrija yra svarbiausia savyb\u0117, leid\u017eianti kitaip organizuoti informacij\u0105.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Juk kas yra s\u0105mon\u0117? Paklaustas D\u017eo, Penrouzas paai\u0161kino, kad m\u016bs\u0173 s\u0105mon\u0117s lygmenyje yra i\u0161likusi tokia kvantin\u0117 b\u016bsena ir kad mikrotubul\u0117s gali b\u016bti tas dalykas, kuris perne\u0161a kvantin\u012f efekt\u0105, ta\u010diau jis neatmeta galimyb\u0117s, kad su tuo susijusios ir kitos strukt\u016bros, kuri\u0173 mes dar neatradome. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Penrouzas \u012ftar\u0117, kad \u0161iose sinaps\u0117se gyvena tam tikros klas\u0117s molekul\u0117s, kurios yra simetri\u0161kos kaip penkiakampiai ir \u0161e\u0161iakampiai, kiekviename s\u016bkuryje turin\u010dios po Triskelionio formos baltym\u0105, susijungiant\u012f i\u0161ilgai kra\u0161t\u0173 kaip futbolo kamuolio ra\u0161tas. Ta\u010diau ar pakanka vien simetrijos? Ar i\u0161 \u0161i\u0173 baltym\u0173 pagamintos med\u017eiagos yra dar vienas svarbus veiksnys? Ir kokia i\u0161 tikr\u0173j\u0173 yra \u0161i\u0173 baltym\u0173 funkcija sinaps\u0117se? Deja, to vis dar ne\u017einome.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Akivaizdu, kad simetrija vaidina svarb\u0173 vaidmen\u012f kvantin\u0117je mechanikoje vadinamame si\u016bl\u0173 pasakotojo efekte. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Taip atsitinka, kai turime labai simetri\u0161k\u0105 strukt\u016br\u0105 ir tarp \u017eemiausio ir kito energijos lygmens gali b\u016bti didelis tarpas. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Didelis atotr\u016bkis gali sl\u0117pti svarbi\u0105 informacij\u0105 apie \u017eemiausi\u0105 energijos lyg\u012f, tod\u0117l informacijos tr\u016bkumas yra viena i\u0161 problem\u0173. Ta\u010diau \"visa tai yra tam tikra tam tikro kvantinio rei\u0161kinio u\u017euomina, \u010dia dar daug k\u0105 reikia suprasti\", - sako Penrouzas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

 Penrouzas teisus, mums tikrai dar daug k\u0105 reikia i\u0161mokti, ir \u017eingsnis po \u017eingsnio mes galime vis daugiau su\u017einoti apie kvantin\u0117s mechanikos pasaul\u012f, esant\u012f m\u016bs\u0173 galvose. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Kai kurie \u017emon\u0117s sakydavo, kad esame tarsi sujungti vienas su kitu ir su visata per da\u017enius ir bangas, na, galb\u016bt tam tikru lygmeniu taip ir yra. Bet kad tai tikrai \u017einotume, reikia atlikti daugiau tyrim\u0173.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Jei norite \u017ei\u016br\u0117ti vis\u0105 pokalbi\u0173 laid\u0105, Spauskite \u010dia<\/a> arba nor\u0117dami su\u017einoti daugiau apie \u0161i\u0105 tem\u0105 ir Penrose'o darb\u0105, \u017eemiau rasite kelet\u0105 jo publikuot\u0173 straipsni\u0173:<\/p>\n\n\n\n

DENT, E. W.; BAAS, P. W. Mikrotubul\u0117s neuronuose kaip informacijos ne\u0161\u0117jos. Neurochemijos \u017eurnalas<\/strong>, t. 129, Nr. 2, p. 235-239, abr. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

HAMEROFF, S.; PENROSE, R. S\u0105mon\u0117 visatoje: Orch OR\" teorijos ap\u017evalga. Gyvenimo fizika Atsiliepimai<\/strong>, t. 11, b. 1, p. 39-78, 1 mar. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

PENROSE, R.; LANDAUER, R. The Emperor's New Mind: Apie kompiuterius, protus ir fizikos d\u0117snius. \"Physics Today<\/strong>, t. 43, n. 6, p. 73, 2008 m. sausio 11 d.<\/p>\n\n\n\n

Jei esate neurologijos ar fizikos srities tyr\u0117jas, galime pad\u0117ti jums sukurti infografik\u0105 apie neurologija<\/a>, neurologija<\/a>, l\u0105steli\u0173 biologija<\/a>, biochemija<\/a>, molekulin\u0117 biologija<\/a>, ir Fizika<\/a> Mind the Graph. <\/p>\n\n\n\n

Siekiame, kad j\u016bs\u0173 mokslinis turinys pasiekt\u0173 vis daugiau \u017emoni\u0173 i\u0161 akademinio pasaulio ir u\u017e jo rib\u0173, ir taip b\u016bt\u0173 kitaip perteiktas mokslas. Ar esate pasireng\u0119 tai i\u0161bandyti?
<\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Jei tur\u0117jote galimyb\u0119 skaityti kit\u0105 mano straipsn\u012f apie 2020 m. Nobelio fizikos premij\u0105, esu tikras, kad prisimenate vien\u0105 i\u0161 trij\u0173 premijos laureat\u0173 - Roger\u012f Penrose'\u0105 - d\u0117l jo nuostabi\u0173 matematikos ir skai\u010diavimo \u012fg\u016bd\u017ei\u0173. Be \u0161io darbo, per pastaruosius kelerius metus Penrouzas taip pat paskelb\u0117 straipsni\u0173 apie [...]<\/p>","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":11946,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[959],"tags":[805,554,775],"yoast_head":"\nJoe Rohan, the Podcaster and Roger Penrose, the Nobel Prize<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Joe Rogan invited Sir Roger Penrose to his podcast. 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He has a Ph.D. and solid scientific background in Psychopharmacology and experience as a Guest Researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry (Germany) and Researcher in D'Or Institute for Research and Education (IDOR, Brazil). Fabricio holds over 2500 citations in Google Scholar. He has 10 years of experience in small innovative businesses, with relevant experience in product design and innovation management. Connect with him on LinkedIn - Fabricio Pamplona.","sameAs":["http:\/\/mindthegraph.com","https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/fabriciopamplona"],"url":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/author\/fabricio\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=11940"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":16057,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940\/revisions\/16057"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/11946"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=11940"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=11940"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/lt\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=11940"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}