{"id":11940,"date":"2020-11-18T09:30:00","date_gmt":"2020-11-18T11:30:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/?p=11940"},"modified":"2022-11-21T09:55:33","modified_gmt":"2022-11-21T12:55:33","slug":"joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/joe-rogan-ja-roger-penrose\/","title":{"rendered":"Joe Rohan, silmapaistev podcaster ja Roger Penrose, Nobeli f\u00fc\u00fcsikapreemia laureaat"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Kui teil oli v\u00f5imalus lugeda teist artiklit, mille kirjutasin 2020. aasta Nobeli f\u00fc\u00fcsikapreemia kohta, siis kindlasti m\u00e4letate \u00fchte kolmest preemia laureaadist, Roger Penrose'i, tema h\u00e4mmastavate matemaatika- ja arvutusoskuste eest. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Lisaks sellele t\u00f6\u00f6le on Penrose viimastel aastatel avaldanud artikleid ka teisest huvitavast teemast, mis erineb mustade aukude valdkonnast. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose'il on veel \u00fcks teadvuse ja kvantmehaanikaga seotud uurimisvaldkond.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Okei, te v\u00f5ite \u00f6elda, et kvantmehaanika on ka matemaatika ja arvutus, aga me v\u00f5ime \u00f6elda, et see on teistsugune matemaatika, mis erineb v\u00e4ga palju mustadest aukudest. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kvantmehaanika p\u00f5hineb peaaegu t\u00e4ielikult Schr\u00f6dingeri v\u00f5rrandil, samas kui mustad rollid p\u00f5hinevad Einsteini v\u00f5rrandil, v\u00f5ib \u00f6elda, et l\u00e4henemine on m\u00f5lemal juhul erinev.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose usub ja j\u00e4reldab oma artiklis HAMEROFF; PENROSE, 2014, et universumi struktuuride ja meie aju, t\u00e4psemalt aju biomolekulaarse struktuuri vahel on seos. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ja v\u00f5ib-olla saaksime seda seost selgitada kvantmehaanika abil. Aga milline see seos v\u00f5iks olla? Kuidas v\u00f5ib sellisel suurel struktuuril nagu universumil olla midagi \u00fchist meie v\u00e4ikeste suurte s\u00e4ravate peadega?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>2018. aastal tervitas koomik Joe Rogan Penrose'i oma talk show's, kus nad r\u00e4\u00e4kisid peaaegu 2 tundi Penrose'i t\u00f6\u00f6dest, teadvusest, kvantmehaanikast ja paljudest muudest asjadest.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Teadvuse teemal jagas Penrose oma m\u00f5tteid sellest, kui raske on formaliseerida abstraktset arusaama teadvusest ja panna see arvutisse, nagu midagi, mida saab t\u00f5lkida numbriteks. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Isegi kui teil on mingi t\u00f5lge ja te arvate, et see argument on \u00f5ige, siis selleks, et teil oleks see otsustamise tunne, peate te arvestama reeglitega, nii et te juhindute nendest reeglitest, ja v\u00f5ib-olla meie m\u00f5istus ei j\u00e4rgi \u00fchtegi reeglit, mida me sellest teame, mist\u00f5ttu see argument ja t\u00f5lge lihtsalt ei ole reaalne. M\u00f5istate?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Siin on Penrose'i rida selle kohta: \"Mis on m\u00f5istmine? Mida see t\u00e4hendab? Kas see on midagi, mis j\u00e4rgib reegleid? Kas see on algoritm? <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>See ei ole algoritm...\", Kui see ei ole algoritm, siis mis see on? Ja kas kvantmehaanika ei ole midagi, mida me juba teame?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Noh, jah, me teame, aga me teame vaid v\u00e4ikest pisikest osa millestki, mis n\u00e4ib olevat nii suur ja keeruline ja erinev k\u00f5igest, millega me t\u00f6\u00f6tame. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kvantide tasandil ei toimu asjad nii nagu meie reaalsuses, neid juhivad t\u00e4iesti teistsugused seadused, kui neid \u00fcldse on, sest me ei tea seda veel. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kui te olete vaadanud Ant-Man'i Marveli filmidest, siis ma arvan, et te saate aru, millest ma r\u00e4\u00e4gin.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meenutame korraks Schr\u00f6dingeri kassi. Schr\u00f6dinger p\u00fc\u00fcdis 1935. aastal selgitada kvantmehaanika kontseptsiooni ja pani selle m\u00f5tteeksperimendi, kus kass, \u00fcks pudel m\u00fcrki ja radioaktiivne element pannakse suletud kasti. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kui element laguneb, l\u00e4heb m\u00fcrgipudel katki ja kass sureb. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Asja m\u00f5te on selles, et kui kast on suletud, ei n\u00e4e me, mis seal sees toimub, ilma eksperimendi tulemust teadmata ei tea, mis tegelikult juhtus, seega v\u00f5ib kass olla nii elus kui ka surnud. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>See ongi kvantmehaanika huvitav osa, et asjad v\u00f5ivad olla korraga kaks asja v\u00f5i olla korraga kahes kohas.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"aligncenter size-large\"><img decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" width=\"536\" height=\"487\" src=\"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11941\" srcset=\"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme.png 536w, https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme-300x273.png 300w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 536px) 100vw, 536px\" \/><figcaption> Elus ja surnud samal ajal, m\u00f5istad? <\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose \u00fctleb, et olla veendunud, et see, mis meie peas toimub, ei ole algoritm, see ei j\u00e4rgi mingeid reegleid, ta usub, et see on midagi muud. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Midagi, mis \"n\u00f5uab meie teadlikku tunnetust sellest, millest me m\u00f5tleme, m\u00f5tlemine on teadvuse asi ja m\u00f5istmine on teadlik tegevus.\" <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Olles s\u00fcdametunnistuse tegevus nagu, m\u00e4ngida instrumenti, olla loominguline, t\u00f6\u00f6tamine v\u00f5i armumine. Need s\u00fcdametunnistuse tegevused ilmselt ei ole arvutused andmed, on midagi muud toimub.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\u00d5nneks hakkasid toimuma m\u00f5ned selgitused, mis selgitasid k\u00f5iki teadlaste k\u00fcsimusi. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Vastus v\u00f5ib peituda meie neuronites, rakkudes, mis kannavad s\u00fcnapsi igasuguse informatsiooni, kemikaalide, elektri, mehaanika ja soojuse kaudu. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose \u00fctles Roganile, et m\u00f5ned aastad tagasi sai ta kirja Stuart Hameroffilt, milles \u00f6eldi, et Penrose ei v\u00f5tnud arvesse neuroneid ja struktuure, mida nimetatakse mikrotuubuliteks ja mis v\u00f5ivad olla teadvuse absoluutselt fundamentaalne vahend. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kahjuks ei ole v\u00f5imalik isoleerida kvantm\u00f5ju neuronites, sest sa saad keskkonna dekoherentsuse, mis t\u00f6\u00f6tab kvantriigi, ei reprodutseeri \u00fcles tasandil skaalal.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\"Nad n\u00e4evad v\u00e4lja just sellised asjad, mis v\u00f5iksid h\u00e4sti toetada sellist taset kvantmehaanika kuni tasemeni, et v\u00f5iks oodata kvantriigi kokkuvarisemist,\" \u00fctleb Penrose Roganile Hameroffi kirja sisu kohta. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mikrotuubulid<\/strong> on v\u00e4ikesed torud, mis koosnevad valgust nimega Tubuliin, neil on meie kehas erinevad funktsioonid, kuid ajus lisaks nende tavap\u00e4rasele funktsioonile, nagu struktuuri toetamine ja transport, v\u00f5ivad mikrotuubulid m\u00e4ngida rolli neuroni info edastamisel (DENT; BAAS, 2014).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ilmselt v\u00f5ib mikrotuubulite all\u00fchikutel olla kaks erinevat t\u00fc\u00fcpi vastastikm\u00f5ju, A-t\u00fc\u00fcpi ja B-t\u00fc\u00fcpi. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Esimene neist on k\u00f5ige s\u00fcmmeetrilisem, nad n\u00e4evad k\u00f5ik \u00fchtemoodi v\u00e4lja. Ajus on olemas A-t\u00fc\u00fcpi, kusjuures s\u00fcmmeetria on k\u00f5ige t\u00e4htsam omadus, mis v\u00f5imaldab erinevalt organiseeritud informatsiooni.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>L\u00f5ppude l\u00f5puks, mis on teadvus? Joe'lt k\u00fcsides selgitas Penrose, et meie teadvuse tasandil on s\u00e4ilinud selline kvantolek ja et mikrotubulid v\u00f5ivad olla see, mis kannab kvantm\u00f5ju, kuid ta ei v\u00e4lista, et sellega on seotud ka teised struktuurid, struktuurid, mida me veel ei ole avastanud.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose kahtlustas, et nendes s\u00fcnapsides elab molekulide klass, mis on s\u00fcmmeetrilised nagu viisnurgad ja kuusnurgad, kus igas keerises on triskelioni kujuga valk, mis \u00fchendavad end m\u00f6\u00f6da servi nagu jalgpalli muster. Kuid kas ainult s\u00fcmmeetriast piisab? Kas nendest valkudest valmistatud ained on veel \u00fcks oluline tegur? Ja milline on tegelikult nende valkude funktsioon s\u00fcnapsides? Kahjuks me ikka veel ei tea.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ilmselt m\u00e4ngib s\u00fcmmeetria v\u00f5tmerolli selles, mida kvantmehaanikas nimetatakse l\u00f5ngakandja efektiks. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>See juhtub siis, kui meil on v\u00e4ga s\u00fcmmeetriline struktuur ja on v\u00f5imalik, et madalaima energiataseme ja j\u00e4rgmise energiataseme vahel on suur l\u00f5he. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Suur l\u00f5he v\u00f5ib varjata olulist teavet madalaima energiataseme kohta, see teabe puudumine on \u00fcks probleemidest. Aga \"see k\u00f5ik on omamoodi vihje mingile kvantn\u00e4htusele, seal on veel palju m\u00f5istmist,\" \u00fctleb Penrose.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;Penrose'il on \u00f5igus, meil on kindlasti veel palju \u00f5ppida ja samm-sammult v\u00f5ime \u00fcha rohkem ja rohkem avastada kvantmehaanika maailma meie \u00fche pea sees. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>M\u00f5ned inimesed on \u00f6elnud, et me oleme omamoodi seotud \u00fcksteisega ja universumiga sageduste ja lainete kaudu, noh, v\u00f5ib-olla teatud tasandil me oleme. Kuid selleks, et seda kindlalt teada saada, on vaja veel rohkem uuringuid selle kohta.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kui soovite vaadata kogu vestlussaadet, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=GEw0ePZUMHA&amp;t=402s&amp;ab_channel=PowerfulJRE\">kliki siia<\/a> v\u00f5i kui soovite rohkem teada teemast ja Penrose'i t\u00f6\u00f6st, siis allpool on m\u00f5ned tema avaldatud artiklid:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>DENT, E. W.; BAAS, P. W. Mikrotuubulid neuronites kui infokandjad. <strong>Neurokeemia ajakiri<\/strong>, v. 129, nr. 2, lk. 235-239, abr. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>HAMEROFF, S.; PENROSE, R. Teadvus universumis: Orch OR-teooria l\u00e4bivaatamine. <strong>Elu f\u00fc\u00fcsika Arvamused<\/strong>, v. 11, nr. 1, lk. 39-78, 1 m\u00e4rts. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>PENROSE, R.; LANDAUER, R. Keisri uus m\u00f5istus: Arvutitest, m\u00f5tetest ja f\u00fc\u00fcsikaseadustest. <strong>Physics Today<\/strong>, v. 43, nr. 6, lk. 73, 11. jaanuar 2008.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kui olete neuroteaduste v\u00f5i f\u00fc\u00fcsika valdkonna teadlane, saame aidata teil koostada infograafikat, mis k\u00e4sitleb <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/neuroscience\">neuroteadus<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/neurology\">neuroloogia<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/cell-biology\">rakubioloogia<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/biochemistry\">biokeemia<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/molecular-biology\">molekulaarbioloogia<\/a>ja <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/physics-&amp;-astronomy\">F\u00fc\u00fcsika<\/a> Mind the Graph-s.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Meie eesm\u00e4rk on, et teie teaduslik sisu j\u00f5uaks \u00fcha enamate inimesteni nii akadeemilises maailmas kui ka v\u00e4ljaspool seda, kasutades teistsugust teaduse edastamise viisi. Kas olete valmis seda proovima?<br><\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Kui teil oli v\u00f5imalus lugeda teist artiklit, mille kirjutasin 2020. aasta Nobeli f\u00fc\u00fcsikapreemia kohta, siis kindlasti m\u00e4letate \u00fchte kolmest preemia laureaadist, Roger Penrose'i, tema h\u00e4mmastavate matemaatika- ja arvutusoskuste eest. Lisaks sellele t\u00f6\u00f6le on Penrose avaldanud ka artikleid, viimastel aastatel [...]<\/p>","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":11946,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[959],"tags":[805,554,775],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v19.9 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Joe Rohan, the Podcaster and Roger Penrose, the Nobel Prize<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Joe Rogan invited Sir Roger Penrose to his podcast. 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He has a Ph.D. and solid scientific background in Psychopharmacology and experience as a Guest Researcher at the Max Planck Institute of Psychiatry (Germany) and Researcher in D'Or Institute for Research and Education (IDOR, Brazil). Fabricio holds over 2500 citations in Google Scholar. He has 10 years of experience in small innovative businesses, with relevant experience in product design and innovation management. Connect with him on LinkedIn - Fabricio Pamplona.","sameAs":["http:\/\/mindthegraph.com","https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/fabriciopamplona"],"url":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/author\/fabricio\/"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940"}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=11940"}],"version-history":[{"count":5,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":16057,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/11940\/revisions\/16057"}],"wp:featuredmedia":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media\/11946"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=11940"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=11940"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/et\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=11940"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}