{"id":11940,"date":"2020-11-18T09:30:00","date_gmt":"2020-11-18T11:30:00","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/?p=11940"},"modified":"2022-11-21T09:55:33","modified_gmt":"2022-11-21T12:55:33","slug":"joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/cs\/joe-rogan-and-roger-penrose\/","title":{"rendered":"Joe Rohan, v\u00fdznamn\u00fd podcaster, a Roger Penrose, nositel Nobelovy ceny za fyziku"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Pokud jste m\u011bli mo\u017enost p\u0159e\u010d\u00edst si jin\u00fd \u010dl\u00e1nek, kter\u00fd jsem napsal o Nobelov\u011b cen\u011b 2020 za fyziku, ur\u010dit\u011b si pamatujete jednoho ze t\u0159\u00ed laure\u00e1t\u016f t\u00e9to ceny, Rogera Penrose, pro jeho \u00fa\u017easn\u00e9 schopnosti s matematikou a v\u00fdpo\u010dty. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Krom\u011b t\u00e9to pr\u00e1ce Penrose v posledn\u00edch letech publikoval \u010dl\u00e1nky na jin\u00e9 zaj\u00edmav\u00e9 t\u00e9ma, kter\u00e9 se li\u0161\u00ed od oblasti \u010dern\u00fdch d\u011br. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose se v\u011bnuje dal\u0161\u00ed oblasti v\u00fdzkumu v\u011bdom\u00ed a kvantov\u00e9 mechaniky.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Dob\u0159e, m\u016f\u017eete \u0159\u00edct, \u017ee kvantov\u00e1 mechanika je tak\u00e9 matematika a kalkul, ale m\u016f\u017eeme \u0159\u00edct, \u017ee je to jin\u00fd druh matematiky, velmi odli\u0161n\u00fd od \u010dern\u00fdch d\u011br. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Kvantov\u00e1 mechanika je t\u00e9m\u011b\u0159 cel\u00e1 zalo\u017eena na Schr\u00f6dingerov\u011b rovnici, zat\u00edmco \u010dern\u00e9 role jsou zalo\u017eeny na Einsteinov\u011b rovnici, d\u00e1 se \u0159\u00edci, \u017ee p\u0159\u00edstup je v ka\u017ed\u00e9m p\u0159\u00edpad\u011b jin\u00fd.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose se domn\u00edv\u00e1 a ve sv\u00e9m \u010dl\u00e1nku HAMEROFF; PENROSE, 2014 doch\u00e1z\u00ed k z\u00e1v\u011bru, \u017ee existuje spojen\u00ed mezi strukturami vesm\u00edru a na\u0161\u00edm mozkem, konkr\u00e9tn\u011b biomolekul\u00e1rn\u00ed strukturou mozku. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>A mo\u017en\u00e1 bychom tuto souvislost mohli vysv\u011btlit pomoc\u00ed kvantov\u00e9 mechaniky. Ale jak\u00e1 souvislost by to mohla b\u00fdt? Jak m\u016f\u017ee m\u00edt tak velk\u00e1 struktura, jako je vesm\u00edr, n\u011bco spole\u010dn\u00e9ho s na\u0161imi mal\u00fdmi velk\u00fdmi z\u00e1\u0159\u00edc\u00edmi hlavami?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>V roce 2018 p\u0159iv\u00edtal komik Joe Rogan Penrose ve sv\u00e9 talk show a t\u00e9m\u011b\u0159 dv\u011b hodiny mluvili o Penroseov\u011b pr\u00e1ci, v\u011bdom\u00ed, kvantov\u00e9 mechanice a spoust\u011b dal\u0161\u00edch v\u011bc\u00ed.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>V souvislosti s t\u00e9matem v\u011bdom\u00ed se Penrose pod\u011blil o sv\u00e9 p\u0159edstavy o tom, jak t\u011b\u017ek\u00e9 je formalizovat abstraktn\u00ed ch\u00e1p\u00e1n\u00ed v\u011bdom\u00ed a vlo\u017eit ho do po\u010d\u00edta\u010de, jako n\u011bco, co lze p\u0159ev\u00e9st na \u010d\u00edsla. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>I kdy\u017e m\u00e1te n\u011bjak\u00fd p\u0159eklad a mysl\u00edte si, \u017ee argument je spr\u00e1vn\u00fd, abyste mohli m\u00edt tento pocit \u00fasudku, mus\u00edte vz\u00edt v \u00favahu pravidla, tak\u017ee se jimi \u0159\u00edd\u00edte, a na\u0161e mysl se mo\u017en\u00e1 ne\u0159\u00edd\u00ed \u017e\u00e1dn\u00fdm pravidlem, kter\u00e9 o n\u00ed v\u00edme, tak\u017ee tento argument a p\u0159eklad prost\u011b nen\u00ed skute\u010dn\u00fd. Ch\u00e1pete to?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Zde je \u0159\u00e1dek z Penrose o tom: \"Co je to porozum\u011bn\u00ed? Co to znamen\u00e1? Je to n\u011bco, co se \u0159\u00edd\u00ed pravidly? Je to algoritmus? <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Nen\u00ed to algoritmus...\", Tak\u017ee pokud to nen\u00ed algoritmus, co to je? A nen\u00ed kvantov\u00e1 mechanika n\u011bco, co u\u017e zn\u00e1me?<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Ano, v\u00edme, ale zn\u00e1me jen malou \u010d\u00e1st n\u011b\u010deho, co se zd\u00e1 b\u00fdt tak velk\u00e9 a slo\u017eit\u00e9 a odli\u0161n\u00e9 od v\u0161eho, s \u010d\u00edm pracujeme. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Na kvantov\u00e9 \u00farovni se v\u011bci ned\u011bj\u00ed jako v na\u0161\u00ed realit\u011b, \u0159\u00edd\u00ed se \u00fapln\u011b jin\u00fdmi z\u00e1kony, pokud v\u016fbec n\u011bjak\u00e9 z\u00e1kony existuj\u00ed, a to v\u0161e proto, \u017ee o nich zat\u00edm nev\u00edme. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Pokud jste sledovali Ant-Mana z film\u016f Marvelu, mysl\u00edm, \u017ee ch\u00e1pete, o \u010dem mluv\u00edm.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Vzpome\u0148me si na chv\u00edli na Schr\u00f6dingerovu ko\u010dku. Schr\u00f6dinger se v roce 1935 sna\u017eil vysv\u011btlit pojem kvantov\u00e9 mechaniky a vlo\u017eil do uzav\u0159en\u00e9 krabice my\u0161lenkov\u00fd experiment s ko\u010dkou, jednou lahvi\u010dkou jedu a radioaktivn\u00edm prvkem. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Pokud se prvek rozpadne, lahvi\u010dka s jedem se rozbije a ko\u010dka zem\u0159e. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jde o to, \u017ee kdy\u017e je krabice zav\u0159en\u00e1, nevid\u00edme, co se d\u011bje uvnit\u0159, a bez znalosti v\u00fdsledku experimentu nev\u00edme, co se skute\u010dn\u011b stalo, tak\u017ee ko\u010dka m\u016f\u017ee b\u00fdt \u017eiv\u00e1 i mrtv\u00e1. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>To je na kvantov\u00e9 mechanice zaj\u00edmav\u00e9, \u017ee v\u011bci mohou b\u00fdt dv\u011bma v\u011bcmi sou\u010dasn\u011b nebo se mohou nach\u00e1zet na dvou m\u00edstech najednou.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\"><figure class=\"aligncenter size-large\"><img decoding=\"async\" loading=\"lazy\" width=\"536\" height=\"487\" src=\"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme.png\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-11941\" srcset=\"https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme.png 536w, https:\/\/mindthegraph.com\/blog\/wp-content\/uploads\/2020\/11\/scientific-meme-300x273.png 300w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 536px) 100vw, 536px\" \/><figcaption> \u017div\u00fd a mrtv\u00fd z\u00e1rove\u0148, ch\u00e1pe\u0161? <\/figcaption><\/figure><\/div>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose \u0159\u00edk\u00e1, \u017ee je p\u0159esv\u011bd\u010den, \u017ee to, co se odehr\u00e1v\u00e1 v na\u0161ich hlav\u00e1ch, nen\u00ed algoritmus, ne\u0159\u00edd\u00ed se to \u017e\u00e1dn\u00fdm pravidlem, v\u011b\u0159\u00ed, \u017ee je to n\u011bco jin\u00e9ho. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>N\u011bco, co \"vy\u017eaduje na\u0161e v\u011bdom\u00e9 uv\u011bdom\u011bn\u00ed si toho, o \u010dem p\u0159em\u00fd\u0161l\u00edme, my\u0161len\u00ed je v\u011bdom\u00e1 v\u011bc a porozum\u011bn\u00ed je v\u011bdom\u00e1 \u010dinnost\". <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>B\u00fdt sv\u011bdom\u00ed \u010dinnost, jako je, hr\u00e1t na n\u00e1stroj, b\u00fdt kreativn\u00ed, pr\u00e1ce, nebo zamilovanost. Tyto \u010dinnosti sv\u011bdom\u00ed z\u0159ejm\u011b nejsou v\u00fdpo\u010detn\u00ed data, d\u011bje se n\u011bco jin\u00e9ho.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Na\u0161t\u011bst\u00ed se za\u010dalo objevovat n\u011bkolik vysv\u011btlen\u00ed, kter\u00e1 v\u0161echny ot\u00e1zky v\u011bdc\u016f vysv\u011btlila. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Odpov\u011b\u010f m\u016f\u017ee b\u00fdt v na\u0161ich neuronech, bu\u0148k\u00e1ch, kter\u00e9 p\u0159en\u00e1\u0161ej\u00ed synapse s nejr\u016fzn\u011bj\u0161\u00edmi informacemi, chemick\u00fdmi, elektrick\u00fdmi, mechanick\u00fdmi a tepeln\u00fdmi. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose Roganovi \u0159ekl, \u017ee p\u0159ed n\u011bkolika lety dostal dopis od jist\u00e9ho Stuarta Hameroffa, v n\u011bm\u017e st\u00e1lo, \u017ee Penrose nebere v \u00favahu neurony a struktury zvan\u00e9 mikrotubuly, kter\u00e9 mohou b\u00fdt naprosto z\u00e1sadn\u00edm n\u00e1strojem v\u011bdom\u00ed. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Bohu\u017eel, nen\u00ed mo\u017en\u00e9 izolovat kvantov\u00e9 efekty v neuronech, proto\u017ee dostanete prost\u0159ed\u00ed dekoherence, co funguje v kvantov\u00e9m stavu, nereprodukuj\u00ed na vy\u0161\u0161\u00ed \u00farovni m\u011b\u0159\u00edtka.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>\"Vypadaj\u00ed p\u0159esn\u011b ten druh v\u011bc\u00ed, kter\u00e9 by mohly b\u00fdt dob\u0159e podporuje druh \u00farovn\u011b kvantov\u00e9 mechaniky a\u017e do \u00farovn\u011b, \u017ee byste mohli o\u010dek\u00e1vat, \u017ee kvantov\u00fd stav ke kolapsu,\" \u0159\u00edk\u00e1 Penrose Rogan o obsahu Hameroffova dopisu. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p><strong>Mikrotubuly<\/strong> jsou mal\u00e9 trubi\u010dky slo\u017een\u00e9 z b\u00edlkoviny zvan\u00e9 Tubulin, maj\u00ed v na\u0161em t\u011ble r\u016fzn\u00e9 funkce, ale v mozku krom\u011b jejich konven\u010dn\u00ed funkce, jako je podpora struktury a dopravy, mikrotubuly mohou m\u00edt roli v p\u0159enosu informac\u00ed v neuronu (DENT; BAAS, 2014).<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Mikrotubul\u00e1rn\u00ed podjednotky mohou z\u0159ejm\u011b m\u00edt dva r\u016fzn\u00e9 typy interakc\u00ed, typ A a typ B. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Prvn\u00ed z nich je nejsymetri\u010dt\u011bj\u0161\u00ed, vypadaj\u00ed po cel\u00e9m obvodu stejn\u011b. V mozku je p\u0159\u00edtomen typ A, p\u0159i\u010dem\u017e symetrie je nejd\u016fle\u017eit\u011bj\u0161\u00ed vlastnost\u00ed, kter\u00e1 umo\u017e\u0148uje uspo\u0159\u00e1dat informace r\u016fzn\u00fdm zp\u016fsobem.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Koneckonc\u016f, co je to v\u011bdom\u00ed? Na ot\u00e1zku Joea Penrose vysv\u011btlil, \u017ee v \u00farovni na\u0161eho v\u011bdom\u00ed je zachov\u00e1n tento druh kvantov\u00e9ho stavu a \u017ee mikrotubuly by mohly b\u00fdt t\u00edm, co je nositelem kvantov\u00e9ho efektu, ale nevylu\u010duje, \u017ee se na tom pod\u00edlej\u00ed i jin\u00e9 struktury, kter\u00e9 zat\u00edm nezn\u00e1me.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Penrose m\u011bl podez\u0159en\u00ed, \u017ee existuje t\u0159\u00edda molekul, kter\u00e9 ob\u00fdvaj\u00ed tyto synapse a jsou symetrick\u00e9 jako p\u011bti\u00faheln\u00edky a \u0161esti\u00faheln\u00edky, p\u0159i\u010dem\u017e v ka\u017ed\u00e9m v\u00edru maj\u00ed b\u00edlkovinu ve tvaru Triskelionu, spojuj\u00edc\u00ed se pod\u00e9l okraj\u016f jako vzor fotbalov\u00e9ho m\u00ed\u010de. Sta\u010d\u00ed v\u0161ak pouze symetrie? Jsou dal\u0161\u00edm v\u00fdznamn\u00fdm faktorem l\u00e1tky, z nich\u017e jsou tyto b\u00edlkoviny vyrobeny? A jak\u00e1 je vlastn\u011b funkce t\u011bchto protein\u016f v synaps\u00edch? To bohu\u017eel st\u00e1le nev\u00edme.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Symetrie z\u0159ejm\u011b hraje kl\u00ed\u010dovou roli v jevu zvan\u00e9m v kvantov\u00e9 mechanice Yarn teller effect. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>St\u00e1v\u00e1 se to, kdy\u017e m\u00e1me vysoce symetrickou strukturu a je mo\u017en\u00e9 m\u00edt velkou mezeru mezi nejni\u017e\u0161\u00ed a n\u00e1sleduj\u00edc\u00ed energetickou hladinou. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Velk\u00e1 mezera m\u016f\u017ee skr\u00fdvat d\u016fle\u017eit\u00e9 informace o nejni\u017e\u0161\u00ed energetick\u00e9 hladin\u011b, tento nedostatek informac\u00ed je jedn\u00edm z probl\u00e9m\u016f. Ale \"to v\u0161echno jsou jen jak\u00e9si n\u00e1znaky n\u011bjak\u00e9ho kvantov\u00e9ho jevu, je tam je\u0161t\u011b hodn\u011b v\u011bc\u00ed k pochopen\u00ed,\" \u0159\u00edk\u00e1 Penrose.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>&nbsp;Penrose m\u00e1 pravdu, st\u00e1le se m\u00e1me co u\u010dit a krok za krokem m\u016f\u017eeme objevovat dal\u0161\u00ed a dal\u0161\u00ed informace o sv\u011bt\u011b kvantov\u00e9 mechaniky v na\u0161ich hlav\u00e1ch. <\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>N\u011bkte\u0159\u00ed lid\u00e9 si zvykli \u0159\u00edkat, \u017ee jsme tak n\u011bjak propojeni mezi sebou a s vesm\u00edrem prost\u0159ednictv\u00edm frekvenc\u00ed a vln, no, mo\u017en\u00e1, \u017ee na ur\u010dit\u00e9 \u00farovni ano. Ale abychom to v\u011bd\u011bli jist\u011b, pot\u0159ebujeme je\u0161t\u011b dal\u0161\u00ed studie.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Pokud se chcete pod\u00edvat na celou talk show, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=GEw0ePZUMHA&amp;t=402s&amp;ab_channel=PowerfulJRE\">klikn\u011bte zde<\/a> nebo se o tomto t\u00e9matu a Penroseov\u011b pr\u00e1ci dozv\u011bd\u011bt v\u00edce n\u00ed\u017ee jsou uvedeny n\u011bkter\u00e9 z jeho publikovan\u00fdch \u010dl\u00e1nk\u016f:<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>DENT, E. W.; BAAS, P. W. Mikrotubuly v neuronech jako nosi\u010de informac\u00ed. <strong>\u010casopis Journal of neurochemistry<\/strong>, v. 129, \u010d. 2, s. 235-239, abr. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>HAMEROFF, S.; PENROSE, R. V\u011bdom\u00ed ve vesm\u00edru: R.: V\u011bdom\u00ed ve v\u011bdom\u00ed: p\u0159ehled teorie \"Orch OR\". <strong>Fyzika \u017eivota Recenze<\/strong>, v. 11, \u010d. 1, s. 39-78, 1. b\u0159ezna. 2014.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>PENROSE, R.; LANDAUER, R. C\u00edsa\u0159\u016fv nov\u00fd rozum: O po\u010d\u00edta\u010d\u00edch, mysl\u00edch a fyzik\u00e1ln\u00edch z\u00e1konech. <strong>Physics Today<\/strong>, v. 43, \u010d. 6, s. 73, 11. ledna 2008.<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Jste-li v\u00fdzkumn\u00edk z oblasti neurov\u011bd nebo fyziky, m\u016f\u017eeme v\u00e1m pomoci vytvo\u0159it infografiku na t\u00e9ma <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/neuroscience\">neurov\u011bdy<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/neurology\">neurologie<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/cell-biology\">bun\u011b\u010dn\u00e1 biologie<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/biochemistry\">biochemie<\/a>, <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/molecular-biology\">molekul\u00e1rn\u00ed biologie<\/a>a <a href=\"https:\/\/app.mindthegraph.com\/illustrations\/subcategory\/physics-&amp;-astronomy\">Fyzika<\/a> v Mind the Graph.&nbsp;<\/p>\n\n\n\n<p>Na\u0161\u00edm z\u00e1m\u011brem je, aby se v\u00e1\u0161 v\u011bdeck\u00fd obsah dostal ke st\u00e1le v\u011bt\u0161\u00edmu po\u010dtu lid\u00ed z akademick\u00e9ho sv\u011bta i mimo n\u011bj, a to jin\u00fdm zp\u016fsobem komunikace v\u011bdy. Jste p\u0159ipraveni to zkusit?<br><\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Pokud jste m\u011bli mo\u017enost p\u0159e\u010d\u00edst si jin\u00fd \u010dl\u00e1nek, kter\u00fd jsem napsal o Nobelov\u011b cen\u011b 2020 za fyziku, ur\u010dit\u011b si pamatujete jednoho ze t\u0159\u00ed laure\u00e1t\u016f t\u00e9to ceny, Rogera Penrose, pro jeho \u00fa\u017easn\u00e9 schopnosti s matematikou a v\u00fdpo\u010dty. Krom\u011b t\u00e9to pr\u00e1ce Penrose v posledn\u00edch letech publikoval tak\u00e9 \u010dl\u00e1nky o [...]<\/p>","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":11946,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":[],"categories":[959],"tags":[805,554,775],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v19.9 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Joe Rohan, the Podcaster and Roger Penrose, the Nobel Prize<\/title>\n<meta name=\"description\" content=\"Joe Rogan invited Sir Roger Penrose to his podcast. 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